zz wrote on Dec 10, 2007 12:06 PM:
" I never stoped going, or being, and never will..no mater what the world thinks.. "
I stopped- in response part2 wrote on Mar 13, 2007 1:20 PM:
" Why are people who leave the Catholic faith given the 3rd degree? It's a choice. I do not agree with many of the Catholic teachings, I was not particularly impressed with the way those "in charge" at my church treated me and a few others. I chose to leave. It was not being run out, it was looking at what was being said, what was being done, and CHOOSING to leave. It doesn't mean I've lost my faith or that I hate Catholics. Most of my family is Catholic. I have no problem with that. But it is not for me. "
Michael Welch: "Tamar" Gets Her Lamb? (Some Day...) wrote on Mar 10, 2007 10:54 AM:
" What's the 'trouble' you say? Partly it's the perception that sexual love obliterates (at least for a certain time) constant cognizance of God -- consequently the idea that sex is only 'appropriate' for necessary procreative purpose. In medieval literature for instance recall that Lancelot mayn't achieve the 'grail' because essentially he loves Guenevere more than God. Another reason is that ALL the present monotheisms come out of rigid patriarchal societies that repress and control women, even treat them as chattel. E. g. 'Lilith' in that tradition is REALLY bad -- however 'Eve' is not much better!... "
Michael Welch: Monotheisms And Sex: NOT A "Pretty" Picture?... wrote on Mar 10, 2007 10:23 AM:
" There's always been a sexual component to religion -- note in particular the religious use of the term 'ecstasy.' And: have you ever seen the famous sculpture of Teresa de Avila in 'ecstatic communion' with God? If so tell me what her facial expression reminds you of? Celibacy (enforced or voluntary) has ALWAYS been an aspect of ALL religions but sigh! My 'prophet' is ol' Doc Freud and he told us about 'repression' and 'sublimation' and the need to consciously recognize repressed desires -- though of course not to act upon them necessarily. Monotheisms especially seem to have 'trouble' with sex... "
Enough excuses already... wrote on Mar 9, 2007 4:39 PM:
" How can Catholics still preach that theirs is the "one true faith". What are other faiths? How can the Catholic church continue to make excuses for the generations of young people sexually assaulted by priests compliments of the Catholie art of relocation? I would ask the Catholic church to compare figures....money spent settling sexual assault claims vs. money to spent to feed the poor, educate the poor and do the Lord's work? "
Michael Welch: You Pays Yer Money An' Picks Yer Church... wrote on Mar 9, 2007 10:50 AM:
" By the way there are by now 90 posts or more on this story; not all of them are mine. It seems there've been many against the Catholic church and many responses to them. I don't think my posts have prevented that. When someone has a bad experience at Shopko or with a certain church the tendency is to go to Wal-mart or K-mart next time. Some priests and nuns are NOT very personable or empathetic people; some are very judgmental -- but then so are many protestant evangelical pastors. Missouri synod Lutherans, perhaps you don't know, can be just as fierce -- as anyone who's attended their churches can tell you!... "
Michael Welch: The "First" Knight Was -- A Muslim!... wrote on Mar 9, 2007 10:32 AM:
" When Jerusalem was at last taken by another crusading army under the infamous English king Richard II ('Coeur de lion' -- 'lion-hearted'; Richard spoke French, not English) the city was thoroughly sacked; the crusaders literally slaughtered everyone in sight, including the city's Jews and Christians -- men, women and children. The 'chilvalric' tradition of 'romantic courtly love' that inspired the troubadours of France by the way focused on the most chivalrous 'knight' of crusader lore -- not Richard but his more humane rival the great Muslim chief Saladin!... "
Michael Welch: The First Crusade... wrote on Mar 9, 2007 10:20 AM:
" The crusades began because the Christian emperor in Constantinople asked the pope in Rome for some mercenaries with which to defend his eastern empire from the Muslim Turkish tribes. The pope however decided to raise an army with which to 'liberate' Jerusalem and spread false stories of rampant slaughter of Christians in Palestine. When the army arrived at Constantinople the emperor actually refused it entrance into the city because he feared its sack -- which is exactly what would occur with the 4th crusade!... "
I stopped- in response wrote on Mar 9, 2007 9:58 AM:
" you are reading my comment incorrectly. I was told that by the Priest and the nun working in the office. These were two people that I had known my entire life. The man who had baptised me and a woman who I had thought of as an Aunt. That was just the starting point of me leaving the Catholic faith. As I got older, other aspects assisted in this decision. I am pro choice. I believe homosexuals deserve to be treated equally. I do not belong in a Catholic church. It is not "home" to me.
As for the other comments, it just gets tiring to see the same arguemnts brought up over and over. It seems that there are many other places on the internet that those discussions can take place, rather than where they usually do. It wasn't meant as a slam against either of you. "
"I stopped" really didn't stop wrote on Mar 8, 2007 4:48 PM:
" youre not the boss of me. besides, some people may not go to church because they lump all churches togather and think "muslims are as bad as jews are as bad as catholics are as bad as protestants, etc. so i just wont go to any church." while i disagree with alot of catholic dogma, the catholic church and christianities role in the crusades is grossly misunderstood. if you really study it, the crusades were christian countries defending themselves and allies from the invading muslims. so you see, it does all tie togather. nah, nah, nah. "
To: I stopped.. wrote on Mar 8, 2007 4:03 PM:
" I can understand being upset by a dufuss trying to blame you for a rape. But leaving the Church because one of it's members did that makes no sense. It's like refusing to ever set foot in Shopko again, any Shopko, because one grumpy employee treated you badly. Pretty soon you'll have to live in a cave because someone in every group has treated you badly. The Priest who did that was a fool. He doesn't represent what the Church believes about you. I guarentee there are such fools in Luthernism or any other group of humans; it's just a matter of time before you meet them. Look at the true teachings of the Church and please come home. "
Michael Welch: Just Serious Folks Discussing Serious Stuff... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:40 PM:
" Why 'stop'? Because YOU aren't interested? I don't understand why a conversation has to brought to a conclusion that implies 'gotcha!' I'm not trying to 'convert' anyone; I'm presenting my ideas (those gleaned from my reading and study) and putting them down in these posts. Others can comment and respond and I give them the courtesy of my replies -- especially if they make salient points which they have. Lack of 'final' agreement DOES NOT mean frustration; it means these are serious issues to be talked about again and again... "
I stopped continued.. wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:23 PM:
" To Mike and whoever is arguing with him.. just stop. You have taken what this article was about and turned it into yet another pointless argument. No one is going to change their entire belief system based on what someone posts on the internet. Get over yourselves and let the comments go to people who actually have something that relates to the issue at hand. "
Michael Welch: It's Not As I Say "Open Warfare" But --... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:21 PM:
" There are many Palestinians who are Christian as well as many Lebanese. (There are Iraqi Christians too.) The ostensible reason for conflict between Jews and Palestinians is land and I agree that's the most important aspect. But there is also religious tension -- and anti-Jewish views certainly exist among many Christians all over the world. Even the seeming 'embrace' of Israel the state by many Christian evangelicals involves some future supposed 'conversion.' There is yet an undercurrent of violence between Judaism and Christianity -- unfortunately... "
I stopped.. wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:12 PM:
" I stopped "being Catholic" when I was 16 and went to my church to ask for advice on what to do about being raped. They told me to confess my "true behavior" and "quit lying to myself" about being raped. In essence, they blamed me. I've had a very difficult time dealing with that. I am still Christian, but I have a hard time belonging to a church that can treat their members like that. Thankfully, I will marry into a Lutheran Church next year and will no longer feel "obligated" to go to my old church. "
Michael Welch: Jews And Christians... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:08 PM:
" As far as Christians and Jews are concerned the animosity between them was fierce in the centuries before Constantine and the ascent of Christianity as the 'state religion' of the Roman empire. After of course 'Christendom' wielded 'Constantine's sword' and we all are aware of over a millennia of Christians' PHYSICALLY attacking the Jews. Jews today are distinctly a 'minority' religion and most live in 'Christianized' cultures so they ALWAYS try to get along -- but that doesn't mean they LIKE the Christian subsumation of THEIR religion! For Jews, Christians were once an heretical sect!... "
Mike wrote on Mar 8, 2007 3:06 PM:
" You said "TODAY Christians and Jews are KILLING others over worship." That is not happening. Muslims do kill others over worship, because it is part of islam to convert or kill infidels. The Jews in Israel are trying to protect themselves from these radical murders. Any death over there caused by a Jew, isn't a Religious directive by a Rabbi. You paint everyone with the same wide brush and miss the differences. The differences are HUGE! "
Michael Welch: -- And Watch Lots Of Old Movies!... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 2:38 PM:
" What's 'the answer'?! Wow indeed! Weeeelllll --I'd say that if one is intrigued with religions stay intrigued. Study them all because they can all tell you a great deal about the search for meaning in existence -- and that includes definitely the polytheistic religions, one of which is Hinduism and that one's still very vibrant indeed. But why do we as people HAVE to 'know everything' RIGHT NOW!? Science and the study of history have taught us much but some matters will remain inexplicable -- for now. Stay 'open' to ideas; explore what interests you; and don't be controlled by fears and those who'd make you always afraid... "
Michael Welch: What You Don't Know CAN "Hurt" You... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 2:28 PM:
" That Christians and Jews after centuries no longer wage 'open warfare' is true but there is distinctly that element in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Many hyper-orthodox Israeli Jews behave violently even against their fellow, more secular Jewish citizens. And of course Islam does consider itself the 'final revelation' of the same 'God' of the Bible -- whether YOU accept that is your business but that's what Muslims believe. And if you are unaware of sectarian conflicts among the monotheistic religions I'm sorry that I've 'shocked' you -- but what you don't know is NOT my fault... "
To: Michael Welch wrote on Mar 8, 2007 12:50 PM:
" So what's your answer? Athiesm? Polytheism? Shall we believe in the sun god, the tree god....what?
"
Mike wrote on Mar 8, 2007 12:47 PM:
" When you say such ridiculous things as "Today Christians, Muslims and Jews kill each other over the 'proper' way to worship ostensibly the same 'God'... " no one will take your posts seriously. Christians and Jews are not killing anyone over the proper way to worship. Plus the god of the Muslims isn't the same God of the Jews and Christians. You know that, and yet you throw out these incendiary comments. It is for comments like these that people hound you. "
Michael Welch: The Terrorism Of Religious Monotheism... wrote on Mar 8, 2007 10:28 AM:
" There's a book! 'God Against the Gods: The History of the War Between Monotheism and Polytheism' by Jonathan Kirsch that recalls Doc Freud's observation from his 'Moses and Monotheism' that '[r]eligious intolerance was inevitably born with the belief in one God.' Polytheism of course implied, even necessitated, tolerance for religious diversity but anyone who peruses the Bible -- say the pentateuchal books or try Ezekiel and the 'Jerusalem the harlot' stuff -- finds ABSOLUTELY NO TOLERANCE for others' beliefs; indeed they must be slaughtered as Moses' 'death squads' attack Israelite polytheists. Today Christians, Muslims and Jews kill each other over the 'proper' way to worship ostensibly the same 'God'... "
To Wm wrote on Mar 7, 2007 1:50 PM:
" Ah...yes...famous last words. You've found the perfect church with no flawed people, never makes mistakes, talls you how good you are, is all knowing, always makes you feel good, no hypocrites, perfect in every way. You've found the perfect politically correct church. You'll find out otherwise eventually. You've expressed one of the worst examples of judgementalness I've seen so far on these blogs. "
Wm wrote on Mar 7, 2007 1:10 PM:
" I left the Catholic church years ago and have not , nor will not , look back. I have since found a church that tells me how good I am , instead of how bad catholics said I was. This church cares about me , not just my wallet. This church practices what it preaches , unlike the hypocrites I left. This church doesnt hide sex abusers and isnt narrow minded and self centered like you know who. "
Y'all missing the point wrote on Mar 7, 2007 10:43 AM:
" Christianity is not about the Catholic Church (or any church for that matter) and never has been. Our faith is about trust and surrender to Jesus Christ. It's not a religion; it's a relationship with God. That's it. Those who attack the faith because of people are missing the point altogether. When was faith about people? "
Re: To those who speak for the children...... wrote on Mar 6, 2007 9:39 PM:
" All that is necessary for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing "
Keys, Rock, feed wrote on Mar 6, 2007 4:56 PM:
" Whoever confesses Jesus as Christ has the keys. How else do you lay up for yourself treasures in heaven? (Matt. 6:20) Look up (blueletterbible.org is a good place)all the references to rock, stone, foundation stone, etc.. You will find that in the Old and New Testament they ALL refer to God/Jesus, not Peter. Yes, Peter was told to feed Jesus's sheep, but so was everyone else. Mark 16:15 "And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature." 1Cor 9:14 "Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel." What is the gospel? The message of salvation through Jesus. "
RE:1 of the children wrote on Mar 6, 2007 4:19 PM:
" Yes, and there is no excuse for what happened. I didn't mean to dismiss you. I just mean that most are not like that, and the Church certainly doesn't teach that this was ok. There are bad apples in every crowd. Society as a whole didn't know what to do when confronted with molesters. They are in churches, schools, businesses, hospitals, homes, everywhere. I think at that time society was a bit more civilized and people were so appalled by any molestation like this that they were embarrassed to even talk about it in public. That wasn't the right way to be, but it was human nature to try to turn away and not look. Society, Church included, has since learned a better way to deal with these molesters. Doesn't remove the hurt though. "
Michael Welch: How Much "Control" Do You Want?... wrote on Mar 6, 2007 4:12 PM:
" Catholic Christianity is not a 'better' religion than any other but it's not worse either; they all have elements of the absurd about them and they all exercise varying amounts of control over your life depending on how deeply involved you wish to be. Most priests and nuns by the way are not secret sexual 'fiends' but try to do their best according to what they've been taught -- but neither are they 'better' than you JUST BECAUSE they are religious. 'Control' by the pope or by James Dobson et. al. is still control: if you want that you sure can get it -- but I advise you to be 'free to be you and me'... "
1 of the children wrote on Mar 6, 2007 1:35 PM:
" I see that you have seen fit to dismiss me and what I had said. Didn’t realize that this would be a place to be judged. Should have known better. The heading stated “got a problem, let your voice be heard”. You want facts, I have facts, but I doubt you can handle them . Might make you have to think twice about how truly evil a priest could be.
I was not only was speaking for myself, but on behalf of the victims of Murphy . The victims that didn’t get their day in court.
Yes, he was only a man (and I really hate use that term) but he did use his vestments to hide behind for his evil ways. If the pedophile priests were ranked according to how many and who their victims were, Lawrence Murphy would hold first and second place. "
Michael Welch: Looking For What You Wish To See... wrote on Mar 6, 2007 12:27 PM:
" In studying theology at St John's University in Collegeville, MN I recall one priest-professor making a simple but salient and perceptive remark about the Bible: he said 'It's a big book' -- meaning that one can find whatever one is looking for at the moment, i. e. rationales for war, violence, intolerance as well as for love, peace and the gentler view of life. That's both the 'genius' of the Bible AND its weakness -- you see it's not just 'the devil' who can 'cite scripture' for his purposes. ALL religions that have endured have that precise elasticity -- which is why there's so much dispute well right here for instance!... "
Just one little observation wrote on Mar 6, 2007 12:20 PM:
" In Matthew 16:18 Peter is called "The Rock" according to some interpretations of this verse. But in verse 23 of the same chapter (just 5 short verses later) Jesus refers to Peter as "Satan" directly. So which is it? Is Peter the first 'Pope' through whom apostolic succession is established or is he 'Satan' through whom Jesus work would have been hindered? Personally, I believe that the 'Rock' upon which the church was established was Peter's declaration of faith in Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the living God." "
TO...Matt 16:18 explained wrote on Mar 6, 2007 12:03 PM:
" You missed v Mt19-21 in your explanation where is mentioned Peter receiving the keys to the Kingdom with power to bind and loosen(see Isa 22:22 to see a similar postion in King David's dysnasty). Also, don't forget about John 21 were Jesus asks Peter three times is he loves him with Jesus' reply.."feed my sheep", etc. Lastly, don't forgot that Peter is alwyas mentioned first among the apostles. There are more, but these are good starters. I suggest the http://forums.catholic.com/ if you really want to learn. Thanks, L.O. "
Michael Welch: See The Forest As Well As The Trees... wrote on Mar 6, 2007 11:58 AM:
" Because religions are about power doesn't mean they are ipso facto 'sinister' in all their aspects. Religions obviously provide meaning and comfort to individuals in the face of life's happenstance; if they didn't there'd be no 'devotion' but by force. Yet power needn't employ armed coercion -- the Roman church lost that kind of control with the reformation, the long long devastating wars and the establishment of the European nation-states. But sure the pope by definition exercises power and the church punishes those (religious mostly) who openly defy that power. Any 'review' of post-Vatican II history shows it rife with those punishments... "
RE: OF COURSE the church is about power! wrote on Mar 6, 2007 11:19 AM:
" Michael, it amazes me that you can really believe that. You spoke of st. Theresa. Have you read her books? Or John of the Cross? The Vatican documents? The writings of the current Pope? All I see in these is the tremendous love of God for us. That's the whole point of the Crucifixion. You'd have to ignore almost everything to think that the Church is all about power. Even in the hot button teachings about homosexuality and abortion, the documents are filled with love and respect, not controlling power. I see power mongering in the business world certainly. But I haven't seen this in the Church's teachings. - Dan M. "
Matt 16:18 explained wrote on Mar 6, 2007 11:03 AM:
" Peter isn't the "rock", Jesus is. Faith in Jesus is the key. When you read the whole chapter you see a few things..1)the pharisees wanted physical proof that Jesus was the savior, 2)Peter answers Jesus and says that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, 3)Jesus says that physical proof didn't reveal that Peter but the Father in heaven did. Why? Because Peter exercised faith in Jesus. Then verse 18. You see it's faith in Jesus as Christ that is the Rock upon which the church (body of believers)will be built on. Now, if Peter, and not faith in Christ, has binding power, then Jesus would have been bound not to die by Peter in verse 22. Plus, NO WHERE else is Peter even hinted at being the foundation of the church. Look at the other gospels and they don't record that "key" point of Christianity. "
It's not hate, it's sadness wrote on Mar 6, 2007 10:47 AM:
" Catholics wrap themselves in man made dogmas and ignore the beauty of the Scripture. As for the conspiracy theory that protestants are raised to hate Catholics, you can give that up. I was raised with a love of the Scriptures, and never once taught to hate Catholics. It wasn't until recently, while studing Catholicism, that I found so much dogma that is out of line with Scripture. That is sad that so many sheep are being led astray. I do find your avoidance to answering the basis of the pope/magisterium question, with this..."Show me in scripture where computers are mentioned....Harley's.....newspapers....cappuccino.... television....TiVo....." quite strange. I would think that the pope's authority would be quite easily spelled out. I guess not. "
Michael Welch: The US Constitution Is That "Jefferson's Wall"... wrote on Mar 6, 2007 10:36 AM:
" OF COURSE the church (ANY 'church,' ANY religion) is about power! A religion in fact purports to represent omnipotent supernatural POWER that MUST be perpetually propitiated -- OR terrible things will happen to YOU! That there are individuals who surrender their very lives to constant propitiation as contemplative -- especially Carmelite, like Therese's -- monastic orders do, attests to the continuing psychological power of religions. Yes there was considerable 'temporal' power asserted too but the horrid 17th century religious wars began the current European resistance -- one 18th century result being the very nation we live in!... "
Catholic confusion? wrote on Mar 6, 2007 7:49 AM:
" Show me in scripture where computers are mentioned....Harley's.....newspapers....cappuccino....
television....TiVo.....King James.....You're trying your best to hate anything Catholic. What is in scripture is love, the authority of the Aposotles, "Do this in memory of me", "You are Peter and upon this rock I will build my Church". I know many have been raised to hate any thing that even looks Catholic, but consider if that really makes sense. "
To Dan wrote on Mar 6, 2007 7:40 AM:
" You want people to study the catechism, yet the earliest Christians were directed to study the Scriptures. 2Tim 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." Mark 12:24 "And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God?" John 5:39 "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me." Catechism is not greater then the power of the Scriptures. "
Catholic confusion wrote on Mar 6, 2007 7:32 AM:
" Yeah, that makes alot of sense...small "m" capital "M". Not. It's just a clear beginning down the road of Catholic confusion. 1Cor 14:33 "For God is not [the author] of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints." Show me in Scripture where the "magisterium" is mentioned. Please show me Scripture where this "magisterium" has special gifts. Then show me in Scripture where only this "magisterium" can interpret scripture. "
Catholics burn too much incense wrote on Mar 6, 2007 12:05 AM:
" As long as some people demand that others quit smoking cigarettes, many those same people will now demand that Catholics quit burning incense and candles for public health reasons. Do the ashes on Ash Wednesday lead to health problems? I wonder how much transfat there is in manna? Maybe ban sacred wine under the guise of intoxication laws too. "
To: Wow! 8:17 From 10:47 & 6:28 wrote on Mar 5, 2007 9:50 PM:
" You speak about using context and yet ignore that concept when reading my post. You fail to differentiate between Mediator and (small cap) mediator. You also ignored the following two sentences in which I offered some explanation of what I meant. Furthermore, the post was a response to someone who was essentially suggesting that he could read scripture and the Holy Spirit would interpret it for him. That's ripe for self-deceit and a far cry from the methodology you suggested. The Catholic Church uses the same basic approach you suggest, except that the "spiritual leaders" you recommend seeking out is the Magisterium--the Pope and the bishops in communion with him--who have special graces from the Holy Spirit in order to guard the Faith from error. They have ultimate authority to decide if an interpretation is consistent with the Faith. "
Wow! wrote on Mar 5, 2007 8:17 PM:
" I'm amazed at how some people talk out of both sides of their mouth and don't have a problem with it. Like this..."Certainly there is only one Mediator, but many mediators." If you and I don't agree on the meaning of some scriptures there are many avenues to use. I don't rely on my own understanding. One tool is context. Is what you are believing consistant with the surrounding verses and the Bible as a whole. Another tool is consistancy. Major Doctrines are repeated consistantly in many books. (Look up salvation through belief.) The other is to get advise from your spiritual leaders. (Mine would consist of my pastor/deacons/scholars/etc.) Then prayer. The conclusion will not contradict Scripture. "
To: "sola" strawman wrote on Mar 5, 2007 6:28 PM:
" Certainly there is only one Mediator, but many mediators. There is only One who could heal the rupture between man and God. But many whom God uses to spread the Truth. Why, pray tell, did Jesus choose to use the Twelve and Paul to convert the known world? Why not just appear individually to everyone? God chooses to work through people. Certainly the Holy Spirit teaches us Truth, but what do you do when you and I obviously are at odds on what Scripture means? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic or is one of us listening to a demon? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer 17:9). People who listen to themselves to learn truth deceive themselves. People need an external, objective authority to be responsible to. It teaches humility. "
To: wrote on Mar 5, 2007 6:27 PM:
" Certainly there is only one Mediator, but many mediators. There is only One who could heal the rupture between man and God. But many whom God uses to spread the Truth. Why, pray tell, did Jesus choose to use the Twelve and Paul to convert the known world? Why not just appear individually to everyone? God chooses to work through people. Certainly the Holy Spirit teaches us Truth, but what do you do when you and I obviously are at odds on what Scripture means? Is the Holy Spirit schizophrenic or is one of us listening to a demon? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" (Jer 17:9). People who listen to themselves to learn truth deceive themselves. People need an external, objective authority to be responsible to. It teaches humility. "
The "sola" strawman arises again, wrote on Mar 5, 2007 3:24 PM:
" It's ironic how it's always Catholics who use the term sola scripture, then build arguments around the word "alone." Here's another interesting quote, "Throughout salvation history God has never left his sheep milling around without annointed human mediators to teach and preach the Word." First, there is only one mediator between man and God. (1 Timothy 2:5) Second, the Holy Spirit was given to those that believe for guidance. (John 14:26 But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things.) "
1 of the children wrote on Mar 5, 2007 3:13 PM:
" Dan M.
Don’t know if you are aware or not but there was a record called Theresa (The little flower) recorded by the DeJohn Sisters in the 50’s. it was a beautiful song, but of course there wasn’t the sound mixing etc. that is used today to make it sound more clear. Thought you might want to check it out. "
To: Michael Welch wrote on Mar 5, 2007 1:26 PM:
" You know, I've never quite understood why so many people think the Catholic Church is all about power. The Church is always thought to be holding down people, wielding it's power, forcing this or that on people. But I've read a lot of the teachings of the Catholic Church and writings of the great Doctors of the Church, many of them women. I don't see this power trip anywhere in there. The writings of the Pope, St. Teresa the "Little Flower", St. John of the Cross all show a completely loving peaceful view of God and the Church. Of course there were bad Popes and other church leaders, but mostly not. Are we all so disgusted with life that we'll rail against "the man", despite the facts? The Church's description of marriage and women, for instance, is very beautiful and respectful. Much more so than our society. - Dan M. "
1 of the children wrote on Mar 5, 2007 12:49 PM:
" You seemed to have missed my point completely. What I was trying to get across is that when the “church” knew what was happening, they chose to look the other way, cover it up and re-locate the priest where they were able to find new victims. Many of us knew years before the stories hit the headlines what had been going on. The worst case I think was Fr. Murphy and although I’m sure you never heard of him, he gave low-life a whole new meaning. Still the “church” stood behind him. Although I am sure they had a lot to do with his choice to suddenly retire. "
Wow! wrote on Mar 5, 2007 12:13 PM:
" A remarkably civilized conversation on religion. Alert the media!!! "
TO: 1 of the children wrote on Mar 5, 2007 11:51 AM:
" So I guess it's hopeless to have any dialog with you? No matter what facts are presented to you, you will always hate the Church. It's like you're bound and determined to suffer no matter what. All I can do is state the facts: the Church does not hate children. The so-called pedophile scandal was society wide, not just the Church. People didn't know what to do with such molesters. Everything is not a sin. Can't imagine where you ever got that idea. You were apparently in a bad orphanage. They existed, probably still exist. All we can do is pray for you that you realize that the Church really doesn't stand for any of the bad things that happened to you. "
Michael Welch: Women NEVER Get A "Break"... wrote on Mar 5, 2007 11:37 AM:
" And it's not only the church but ALL 'world religions' that generally reduce the role of women and employ doctrine in order to 'control' them (sexually) -- which is ironic because women are usually the mainstays of religious at the family level: i. e. if mom don't do it, it don't get done! ALL these religions are dominated hierarchically by men; basic doctrine is formulated by those male hierarchs and 'enforced' at the 'parish' or 'church' level by priests, pastors et. al. according to what is 'practical' for that local reality. (There USED to be a 'Great Goddess' religion before the 'Zeus-Yahweh' axis but it's now maligned as 'pagan' and 'witchcraft'...) "
1 of the children wrote on Mar 5, 2007 11:29 AM:
" I doubt this will be posted either. I know first hand about the hatred felt toward the children. We were the victims and didn’t dare tell. The priests and nuns had control and they knew it and used it. I think the cover-up was as low as the acts and violence itself. Many of us wished the nuns had just done “knuckle rapping” but that was not the case.
I am a survivor of the orphanage. Talk about 24 / 7 control. I felt and still feel that the “brain-washing techniques used has left many of us with emotional problems. After all “everything” was and is a sin. So unless you have walked in our shoes, don’t judge us. "
Sola Scriptura is man-made wrote on Mar 5, 2007 10:47 AM:
" To those who keep insisting that the Bible is the sole authority, I'd like to point out that that is a man-made tenet and unsupported by Scripture (2 Tim 3:16 fails to establish Scripture as the "sole" authority). Whenever you quote Scripture to apply to a particular point, you place yourself as an authority over scripture. That authority to authentically interpret was/is left by Christ to the apostles and their successors under the guidance of the Holy Spirit (Mt 16:17-19). Throughout salvation history God has never left his sheep milling around without annointed human mediators to teach and preach the Word. We have the written Word, but what it "means" has to be interpreted. The Catechism is one way the Magisterium interprets Scripture for God's sheep. "
Michael Welch: Everybody Gets Far Too Excited About This Stuff... wrote on Mar 5, 2007 10:38 AM:
" I am no longer a practising Catholic OR Christian but it isn't because of 'Catholic' doctrine per se. (And the church's 'official' stances on abortion, stem cell research and homosexuality are really VERY compatible with most protestant fundamentalist views.) My points below were meant to challenge some common protestant assertions that aren't actually true. As for Mary -- well Christianity is chock full of mysticism and supernaturalism and Mary is simply one more aspect of it. The long-suffering ever-loving mother figure however has its distinctly attractive factor -- to YOUR mother certainly!... "
Praying to saints wrote on Mar 5, 2007 10:26 AM:
" It's as I was saying before, Catholics consider divine revelation to be from Scriptures, but this includes the Traditional teachings of the Apostles. The Bible speaks of us being one with God and all people. The inscriptions in the catacombs clearly showed that the earliest Christians prayed for the dead. I keep harping about the Catechism because the 150 words allowed in a blog can't possibly do justice to these things. Not everything will be written explicitly in the Scriptures. For instance, we believe abortion is wrong, but that word isn't in the Bible either. We should also read the writings of the Fathers of the Church to see what they and the Apostles believed. This helps us to know how to interpret the Bible. - Dan M. "
Practicing Catholic (cont.)... wrote on Mar 5, 2007 9:41 AM:
" The true faith that Christ left for us to live by will not change it's dogmas in order to please an immoral society. It is a faith that is full of God's love and forgiveness, and a faith that does not leave out anything...including Sacred Tradition. Research the Catholic faith and the Bible thoroughly and historically. You will be able to see how and why the Catholic faith is the one, true faith, and that all other Christian demoninations are branches of it. Note: I am speaking of the Catholic FAITH, not the CHURCHES or the PRIESTS. There are many that are not in full communion or teaching with the Faith. Be careful for these!!! "
Practicing Catholic... wrote on Mar 5, 2007 9:40 AM:
" I have noticed so many people today that aren't looking for a faith in which to serve God, but a church and social scene in which to serve themselves. "I love this church because they do so much with children!" " I love this church...THEY agree with ME on so many things!" "This church has such lively music!" This is misguided... "
Dan M. wrote on Mar 4, 2007 11:28 PM:
" You keep directing people to study the catechism instead of the Word of God. That is very telling. Please post one verse directing believers to pray to dead believers. I've been directed by Catholics to the transfiguration, but no direction by Jesus to pray to dead believers. I've been directed to Revelations where it talks about the prayers of the saints as incense, but no direction to pray to dead believers. Here is one of many examples that saints in the NT are alive believers...Rom. 15:25 "But now I go unto Jerusalem to minister unto the saints." "
sole authority of the Bible wrote on Mar 4, 2007 10:56 PM:
" I can understand that. But I think we should consider where the Bible came from. The New Testament is actually the teaching of the Apostles written down. It was oral tradition originally, only finally written down several decades after Jesus' resurrection. That's why Catholics believe in Scripture and Tradition, since they're the same thing. Keep in mind that it's Tradition I mean here, not tradition (capital T vs small t). The traditions of man are not absolute truth. By these I mean the order of prayers in the Mass, meatless Fridays, etc.. These can be changed. But Tradition is the teachings of the Apostles handed down for nearly 2000 years. So, I agree, the Bible is the sole authority, but the Bible is part of the Traditions of the Apostles. - Dan M. "
I left the Roman Church, but ... wrote on Mar 4, 2007 7:48 PM:
" I am in agreement with the church's position on the "big three" ... homosexuality, woman priests, and abortion. Most mainline protestant denominations are as well. "
To: Dan M. Cont'd ... More Respect Than You May Think wrote on Mar 4, 2007 7:45 PM:
" I believe in the sole authority of the Bible. However, IF you believe in the infallability of the Pope in matters of faith and the authority of the Magisterium ... Roman Catholic doctrine is on fundamentally solid ground. It is internally consistent and truly seeks to honor God. I left the RCC long ago, but I have more respect for that church than you might expect. "
Praying to dead saints wrote on Mar 4, 2007 7:30 PM:
" We believe in the Communion of Saints. Being dead does not mean we cease to exist. The dead are in union with God (if they're in heaven of course...) and we can ask them to pray for us just as we can ask a friend on earth to do so. There is plenty of scriptural evidence for this. The references are in the Catechism. I really want people to take a serious look at this Catechism. There are so many, including Catholics, who really have no idea what the Church teaches or why. They miss so much. The truth is out there. (ok, now you know, X-files fan!!) - Dan M. "
wrong wrote on Mar 4, 2007 7:23 PM:
" Well, it seems so often the disagreements usually revolve around the sexual side of life. Homosexuality, birth control, abortion, all have sexual activity at their core. But yes, there are other important issues to some people. The so-called man-made doctrines are really very God-made. No doctrine is man-made, only customs are. The wording of prayers in the Mass, vestments the priest wears, fasting on Fridays, etc...these are man-made disciplines and can be changed. Doctrine is inspired by the Holy Spirit, like the divinity of Christ or birth control. If you'll read the Catechism on birth control in its entirety, you'll be very impressed with how God and Scripture based it is. - Dan M. "
Good to see some humility wrote on Mar 4, 2007 7:11 PM:
" Gotta love people like "Dan M." who, in their opinion, are the ONLY people who REALLY understand what the Gospel REALLY means. Dude, have you ever cracked a history book? "What the Gospel really means" has meant a lot of different things to a lot of different people over 2000 years. Thank goodness for folks who are comfortable enough in their own faith that they can open their ears. How strong is YOUR faith, Mr. M., if you can't listen to other people without having to trying to shove the infallibility of YOUR opinions down their throats? "
Thank you Dan for illustrating the major problem with Catholism wrote on Mar 4, 2007 6:26 PM:
" You wrote, "In short, we're all mediators when we pray for one another." A direct contradition of the Bible. 1Timothy 2:5 "For [there is] one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" It is you and other Catholics that nit-pick the Bible to fit your man-made traditions and rituals. BTW, when we pray for one another, we are praying to The Mediator. Also, there is no place in the Bible where we are directed to pray to passed on believers. (Saints in the NT are believers that are ALIVE.) "
To: Dan M wrote on Mar 4, 2007 4:58 PM:
" I always have respect for your opinions ... but you've identified the wrong "big three" in this case. There are more substantive theological objections to the Catholic Church than those. They include man-made doctrines on purgatory, Mary as intercessor, praying to dead "saints" as intercessors, the role of priests as intermediaries in confession, forgiveness of sins through baptism, Papal infallibility, Apostolic succession, etc. "
The "big three" wrote on Mar 4, 2007 3:09 PM:
" The objections to the catholic Church always seem to come down to the "big three", homosexuality, woman priests, and birth control. Our culture has brain washed us on so many things like this. The Catholic Church is truely counter-cultural. There are very good reasons for these teachings, but it will take time and effort to read and understand. The depth and beauty of the teachings of the Church will astound you. This is what many who have joined the Catholic Church from other churches have said. When they really took the time to read and look closely, they felt they had no choice but to become Catholic. Take the time. - Dan M. "
To: To Dan, wrote on Mar 4, 2007 2:59 PM:
" If you truely read the Catechism, you'd have good answers to your questions about Mary. In short, we're all mediators when we pray for one another. That's what we're doing when asking Mary or any other saint to pray for us. They, and we, intercede with God for someone. Re-read the catehism, looking at the many references given. Don't read with the intent of looking for something to nit-pick about. The truth is in there if you'll let it speak to you. - Dan M. "
Another take on JD Chapman's words wrote on Mar 4, 2007 12:28 PM:
" I disagree with whomever was bashing JD Chapman. However, I have followed a third option that JD didn't suggest. I, like he, disagree with the Catholic teaching on homosexuality, women in the clergy, birth control, and others. However, I consider the Church like family, i.e. it can be messed up and have problems, but most would agree you don't just write them off. You try to work things out, try to make things better, try to work from within so you can be proud of your family and not ashamed. I am sometimes embarrassed by but truly love the Catholic Church and the heart of Christ's teachings. "
to Tommy Gnosis wrote on Mar 4, 2007 12:23 PM:
" Start a blog! "
To Dan, wrote on Mar 4, 2007 12:15 AM:
" I have read the catechism, that where I find all the bad dogma. Compare this..."Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix (intercessor)." Pg. 252, #969 To..."...if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:" 1 John 2:1 Or this...1Timothy 2:5 "For [there is] one God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;" You can cling to your man devised beliefs. I'll cling to Jesus. BTW, I don't hate the Catholic Church, I feel sadness for it. "
To:JD Chapman wrote on Mar 3, 2007 11:59 PM:
" Maybe you should just start your own religion. It seems you just sort of "cherry-pick", if you will, what is most appealing to you. Anyone can do that. Having said that, how in the world could you disagree with the church's position on abortion? That is not only a basic Tenet of the Christian Faith(Thou Shalt Not Kill), but it used to be a cornerstone of our secular law as well. Take that Commandment away, and every other issue or teaching is rendered meaningless. "
non-biblical dogma? wrote on Mar 3, 2007 11:18 PM:
" All the beliefs you mentioned are quite biblical and logical, and taken completely in context. Again I'll have to say...read read read the Catechism. You will find such beauty and truth, biblical truth. It also explains the doctrine of infallibility, a belief that even many Catholics don't understand. So few people are willing to put forth the effort to read anymore. Without it you'll never understand. There is such joy and peace in the truths shown in the Catechism. I think it was Fulton Sheen that said he doubted that there were 100 people in the world who hated the Catholic Church, but millions who hated what they thought the Church was. - Dan M. "
Also To: Michael Welch wrote on Mar 3, 2007 7:46 PM:
" What an absurd comment! "If the Vatican especially would shut up most parish priests could handle 'things' just fine..." ??? Ummmmmmm ... the Pope is the infallible one, right? ... on the same plane as Scriptures in directing practice and teaching in the church. How can you as a Catholic advocate ignoring them?
"
JD Chapman wrote on Mar 3, 2007 7:44 PM:
" I was raised catholic. I disagree with the Church's positions on issues such as homosexuality, abortion, and birth control to name a few. I am bothered by the scandals. I believe I have two options (1) Keep these beliefs to myself, and confess them as sins (which I don't believe they are), or (2) Leave the church. I've chosen option 2 for the last 5 years. Since then, I don't feel nearly as much anger at the church. I have many catholic friends who are wonderful people. I acknowledge the enormous amount of good ithe church does in the world. It is a great institution with some serious problems. I wish it well, but I feel like I've been politely asked to leave, and that's what I've done. "
Too much non-biblical dogma wrote on Mar 3, 2007 7:10 PM:
" Purgatory, Mary as sinless, Mary didn't die, Mary interceeds, praying to dead "saints", Papal infallibility, Apostolic succession, salvation through the Catholic church only, the church or priest can forgive sins, forgiveness of sins through baptism, sacraments necessary for salvation, no assurance of salvation (presumption),etc. The "Biblical" support for these dogmas are small and taken completely out of context. To be a Christian to Catholics, takes putting your faith in the traditions/institutions of man versus putting your faith in Jesus and His Word. "
To Brian Curtis wrote on Mar 3, 2007 5:45 PM:
" Try the Unitarian Universalist church. Or just work directly with whatever higher power you feel. "
Heresy wrote on Mar 3, 2007 5:43 PM:
" So a few local priests will begin listening after centuries of the church telling people that IT is the sole authority. What possible difference can this make? It seems like a rather cynical public relations attempt since the REAL authorities in the church will never accept that individuals can commune with God without the intervention of the hierarchy. Perhaps these good priests can try to get the Pope to listen to them and pass along the fact that fewer and fewer people are buying what the Holy See is selling. "
Tommy Gnosis wrote on Mar 3, 2007 5:13 PM:
" I find it interesting and rather telling which posts actually make it on this board. The Tribune deleted a post I made detailing the reasons I walked away from the Catholic church. There were no religious or personal attacks, slander, profanity or anything else that is banned. Apparently the editors just didn't like what I had to say. They will, quite likely, delete this post as well. Interesting--freedom of the press does belong to those that own one. "
To: Michael Welch wrote on Mar 3, 2007 4:29 PM:
" Good call. Listening to the liturgy (Mass) I'm amazed at all the scripture in it. Almost every word uttered is from scripture. We're saturated in the Bible in the Mass. I still get goose bumps at the words "This is my Body..." Could you explain further what you mean by saying the local priests could handle things without the Vatican? What has the Vatican done that you object to? - Dan M.
"
To: Brian Curtis wrote on Mar 3, 2007 4:23 PM:
" If you're waiting for a church, or any other group, that has only perfect people and a perfect history, you have a long wait. People make mistakes, including you. If we refuse to have anything to do with imperfect people, we're going to be very lonely in life. Read the actual teachings of the Church. You'll see tremendous love and acceptance as well as truth. The Church accepts sinners, but not sin itself. Read...read...read. -Dan M. "
Brian Curtis wrote on Mar 3, 2007 2:09 PM:
" I left the catholic church initially because of it's intolerance of women and gays. I stayed away because of the hatred of children as shown by their refusal to do the right thing by all the victims of clergy abuse in their ranks and instead cover it up to 'save face, reputation, and contributions' -- all of which they have lost because of their actions. It conviced me, that the church's main interest was self and not the congreagation or humanity in general. When I find a church that his not hypocritical by preaching love while acting hateful, I will give organized religion another chance. Does anyone know of any such church? Any at all? "
namvet 72 wrote on Mar 3, 2007 1:55 PM:
" bless me father for I have sinned "
Michael Welch: Go To A Mass -- You'll Hear Scripture!... wrote on Mar 3, 2007 12:10 PM:
" And by the way the poster below has obviously never been to a Catholic mass if he thinks there aren't any biblical scriptures read or that priests don't employ them in their homilies or sermons. The Catholic church pays as great attention to the Bible as any other; as a matter of fact it is probably much more careful about interpretation than some evangelical sects. Until the 1950s the Vatican discouraged 'lay scholarship' precisely because it was wary of a plethora of opinions. Catholics today are of course 'literate' and read the Bible probably as much (or little as the case may be) as any other Christian... "
J.E. wrote on Mar 3, 2007 11:57 AM:
" To - Too little, too late... what if this were titled, got a problem with Islam? What about the rights of women, gays, disabled etc. and what it says in the Qu'aran? Women's rights are not protected by that teaching either. If organized religion is "bad" then all religion must be bad, therefore a non-religious world would be better? - I highly doubt it. You sound bitter and angry and should examine yourself in the same way as you examine the Catholic Church. "
"Too many man-made rules" wrote on Mar 3, 2007 11:32 AM:
" For instance? "
Marilyn Peterson wrote on Mar 3, 2007 10:56 AM:
" I am a Catholic who returned to the Catholic Church after over 20 years away - Many Catholics have left the church because they never were willing to spend the time actually learning what it teaches and why! In the past there may have been excuses for not knowing what the Catholic Church believed and taught- but in this age of internet, local Catholic radio and EWTN there is no excuse. I spent 8 months checking it out - and I couldn't "come home" fast enough. There is a saying that I found to be very true - "To be deep in history is to cease being non-Catholic". Check out what Catholic authors and speakers say about the Church. "
Michael Welch: Think And Act "Locally"... wrote on Mar 3, 2007 10:40 AM:
" I've been a Catholic and I have no 'problem' with Catholics who are after all as human as everyone else -- as 'good,' 'bad' and 'indifferent.' The 'rules' are actually quite generously dispensed on the local level and most priests are 'simpatico' -- like the two men in this story: they don't 'live to chastise' but to reconcile. The protestant sort of fundamentalist (one is posted below) is usually far more judgmental and severe than today's priests. The 'problem' is hierarchical and monarchical mainly; if the Vatican especially would shut up most parish priests could handle 'things' just fine... "
Dean Dickinson wrote on Mar 3, 2007 10:27 AM:
" You cannot find two better priests to act as reconcilers than fathers O'Neill and Berger. They walk the walk with Christ and because they are non-judgemental will bring a very positive attitude to the process of reconciliation. "
Hedwig wrote on Mar 3, 2007 10:09 AM:
" As a child I remember going to Christmas mass and it was standing room only. Later, the church had plenty of room and I wondered why. It became pretty clear when, during the sermon, the priest spent Christmas railing against gays and abortion rather than dwelling on the miracle of God's love. It was a depressing message delivered during a season of hope. No wonder the pews were empty. "
Fr. Tom and Fr. Larry wrote on Mar 3, 2007 8:50 AM:
" I'm a non-practicing catholic, but I've met both of these men. If all priests were as open-minded and willing to listen as they are, catholics wouldn't have the problem of people leaving the church. Their assessment of the problem, as reported in this article, is exactly right. The beginning of the end for me was sitting through a sermon where the priest attacked people who suffer from AIDS. I got up and left. What an ugly experience that was. I don't want to generalize all priests as being like that, especially Fr. Tom and Fr. Larry, but there are churches where I can be guaranteed that my kids will never have to hear such hateful, angry nonsense. "
Too many man-made rules wrote on Mar 3, 2007 8:41 AM:
" The Bible contains the rules to live by. There are way too many man-made rules in the Catholic Church. Why don't the Catholic priests teach/preach from the Bible at their services? "
Too little....to late wrote on Mar 3, 2007 8:33 AM:
" I am doubtful that this forum could help me resolve my issues with the Catholic church. I cannot find a way to worship in an institution that failed to protect generations of children from dangerous priests. I am not comfortable with a church that would rather build a shrine than keep schools open and affordable for families. Commentary from the church regarding these kind of concerns usually puts it back in my court...I need to forgive and keep my focus on the word of the bible and the resurrection. The politics of the Catholic church is a source of distraction and upset that I can't make peace with. I am looking for a faith community that is less political, less criminal and more inclusive. Needless to say, I feel guilty about leaving my Catholic faith (mission accomplished?) "
former wrote on Mar 3, 2007 7:06 AM:
" I was baptised Catholic, but never strictly followed. I never agreed, or liked half of the rules they have. "
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