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Published - Tuesday, February 05, 2008

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Joe Orso: Can a carrot speak to a giraffe?


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Maybe I should have seen it coming when John the Baptist and I decided to move in together.

I mean, he’s Baptist. He knows the Bible better than me. He tells me the story of Job from heart.
When I tell him I disagree with some of God’s decisions, he’s outraged and tells me God’s ways are far beyond our understanding.

I tell him I never know what it means when he says Jesus is perfect. He tells me I just have to accept it.

And I knew all this would be coming when we moved in together. I knew when it came to religion, our conversations would be like a carrot trying to communicate with a giraffe. I knew we’d disagree about what it means — if it means anything anymore — to be saved in an ultimate way.

What I didn’t know was the level of fun we’d have. I didn’t realize that arguing with a person who disagrees with some of your most deeply held convictions could involve such levity.

You wouldn’t think that having a friend who feels you might be going to Hell — when for you, Hell is an experience and not a place — could leave you both smiling at the end of the conversation.

But it does.

As John keeps trying to point me back to the God of the Bible and the afterlife, and I keep trying to point him to the God of the sky and today, we often shake our heads at the density of the other.

And we laugh.

And then he talks about the sun and I talk about Creation.

And we help each other, too.

When I realized my mistake in last week’s column concerning the date of Ash Wednesday, he was doubled over laughing, though when he saw I wasn’t smiling, pointed out the fact that it was just a date.

When we were both feeling tense after being disturbed at night by unexpected visitors, we sat in silence and, with St. Francis, asked God for peace.

During a conversation about churches and laws, he split open my mind with a question that left me silent: Aren’t you a church?

A few days later, he split open my mind again after I told him I just didn’t understand another piece of his theology.

“Well you don’t understand the universe, either, but you accept that, don’t you?” he asked.

If you read the news, you wouldn’t think somebody who calls himself a fundamentalist and somebody who doesn’t call himself a fundamentalist would have anything to talk about when it comes to religion.

Turns out we do. Surprisingly, heaven, hell and religious convictions don’t really get in the way of friendship.

Joe Orso can be reached at jorso@lacrossetribune.com.
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mindful wrote on Feb 7, 2008 3:40 PM:

" I agree with matts 923pm post. Michael is a little less pretentious, even a bit "mindful"-but BGS definitely had a bad day, and sharon is just too closely connected to someone (supposedly) in the story to respond with any less emotion. I wanted to point out that John, if indeed is of the convictions he portrays to you - he would not be "outraged" with your disagreements. If so, he's missing something. And, Joe, St Francis? I think you and I would be laughing as well. "

Michael Welch wrote on Feb 7, 2008 11:08 AM:

" Oh gee! I get pounded regularly by the Christian literalists but I object to Brian's rather crude dismissal. (His critic however -- like mine -- refuses to 'sign on' to attack him but states his displeasure on Jimmy Gillman's blog -- WHAT is he 'afraid of' hmm?) OF COURSE the biblical accounts are NOT history but they can have religious-spiritual significance. A man who has behaved badly with others in his life can be 'forgiven' and 'redeemed' and 'go -- and sin no more!' He can believe a 'greater power' exists to keep him from alcohol and drugs; he could even begin treating others as HE should be -- with concern and respect. He could try even to be 'like Jesus' -- that's not useless or 'rubbish'... "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 6, 2008 6:31 PM:

" Stories from the Bible or past have no means of confirmation...they are BS...!!!!! "

BrianGSmith wrote on Feb 6, 2008 6:29 PM:

" This article was absolute rubbish. Horse-hackey, etc. Don't get the point. Is "John" here and answering questons? Or was 'John" a biblical creation of an idiot? "

Michael Welch wrote on Feb 6, 2008 11:54 AM:

" Obviously the woman commenting below has 'issues,' probably real ones too but if Joe Orso is going to discuss those then perhaps we could fully understand just 'who' this 'John the Baptist' is and why he's turned to religion for purpose and conviction. As a critic of ANY religious literalness or 'fundamentalism' I imagine I wouldn't agree with this 'John' about much but yeah the story is about a kind of dialogue between differing religious views looking for commonality and respect. Respect though involves tolerance and it's easier, Orso seems to say, to 'tolerate' people as folks we know first. If 'John' ought to be legally punished that's out of everyone's hands; but if he has one friend named 'Joe Orso' I don't why he oughtn't have at least that... "

matt wrote on Feb 5, 2008 9:23 PM:

" I believe Michael Welch's views are the best re: this article. Sharon's show a complete lack of compassion and lack of forgiveness. Maybe she has a reason to speak this way -- a scar from her own past in which she was harmed?

I seek to judge neither Sharon nor John "the Baptist." Everyone deserves a second chance. Everyone deserves a third, fourth, fifth... Forgiveness does not put limits on its power to heal and change.

I still wonder how Sharon made a connection that wasn't in the article at all though. "

Michael Welch wrote on Feb 5, 2008 10:54 AM:

" Orso seems to be able to treat this man as a human being; he's written about his personal relationship with him. I have no knowledge that this man has 'changed' either but usually folks who've committed bad acts and then have become religious are ATTEMPTING some kind of transformation -- which doesn't keep them out of court or from responsibility for their past behaviors and it shouldn't. If the religious aspect is indeed a facade eventually it won't help. But Orso it seems to me is taking a redemptive view and humanizing even one you regard as 'the least of these.' People often don't change unless SOMEONE will believe they can... "

sharon wrote on Feb 4, 2008 5:16 PM:

" Well, Orso's "John the Baptist" will be in court tomorrow for anyone who wants to see him in action. One might wonder why Orso and John were being "disturbed at night by unexpected visitors" sitting in silence and asking St. Francis and God for "peace." Rather a flowery description of two people avoiding a process server don't you think? "

sharon wrote on Feb 4, 2008 2:07 PM:

" Where is it stated or where is there any evidence that "John" has made any attempt to "change." Also, where are the stories of those he has harmed and continues to harm. Where is the story concerning what he has cost the taxpayers for the past several decades? Some people are masters at getting over on others who want to believe that they are "saving" someone from himself. "

Michael Welch wrote on Feb 4, 2008 11:13 AM:

" The implication is that this 'John the Baptist' is the John McMahon of the story cited? Orso doesn't say that. And if it is so, is this person then not 'permitted' to try to begin again, to attempt to rectify his wrongs? I don't understand when folks say they WANT people to 'change' for the better, why there is so much desire to continually blame and denigrate them even if they do? Orso wrote a story of friendship between two religious people with different understandings; he wasn't 'pleading' for 'forgiveness' for anyone but for some MUTUAL connection among us human beings... "

sharon wrote on Feb 3, 2008 7:18 PM:

" Once again we are served up another story about a person who has done nothing in his life but wreak havoc and violence. [See http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2006/08/20/news/00lead.txt] Unless "John the Baptist" was a batterer and sociopath, I cannot understand the analogy and/or positive comparison. Where is the story about the lives of the people, including his own biological children, this John has tried to destroy - and not just on his own, but with the assistance of the courts and clergy?

Sharon "

Itaska wrote on Feb 2, 2008 1:59 PM:

" I want to meet John sometime. I already know you. Your friendship is a blessing from God. Can you two agree on that at least? So glad you two are friends. "

mvass wrote on Feb 2, 2008 11:24 AM:

" Joe glad to see you guys are chums. I like the idea that John doesn't get down on you over your views. I fell he is showing Christian love and respecting your free will and you his which is what God gave us. You talked about God today, like He's different than He was; to my Bible knowledge He does not change. Have you considered John being a guest writer?
Mike "

Michael Welch wrote on Feb 2, 2008 10:51 AM:

" When I began commenting especially on religious matters over a year and a half ago I found dozens of posts in the 'Faith' section and elsewhere insisting on the strictest, most literal interpretation of the Bible -- the Bible was not only history but science and other Christian interprets like the Catholic especially were not even deemed 'Christian.' Meditative prayer was likened to Buddhist meditation and implied 'demonic'; other religions were dismissed without any curiosity about their content and Islam was to them 'the Great Satan.' Nearly all that has disappeared for now -- for whatever 'reason' but I think those of us who challenged those views had something to do with it. Granted the 'debate' is absent (though not the convictions) but so is so much intolerance that was right here... "

matt wrote on Feb 2, 2008 9:56 AM:

" "Surprisingly, heaven, hell and religious convictions don’t really get in the way of friendship."

You would never know it from these boards sometimes, but I agree. At least they SHOULD NOT get in the way of friendship and connection. Too many times people let it happen. They create division and isolation where it just doesn't need to exist. Glad John the Baptist and Joe can see through the differences to each other's humanity. "


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