buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 12:59 PM:
" Oh Peachee. You called me a radical groupie and I called you an Ilkie. Just a joke, Peachee. I am still wondering what you would do with your child if they ripped up a document in a teacher's face? That would be okay with you? I read in the Tomah paper that she is a 30 year teacher. She has not had problems in the past. Do you not feel that he owes her an apology? I do not like to see our educators subject to this kind of behavior. "
Peachee wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:45 AM:
" call me what you like...my kids used to act that way when they were younger..they call it bullying. They dont act that way any longer...?? "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:25 AM:
" That would make you an Ilkie! "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:24 AM:
" Or maybe it's not a group, maybe it's an ilk. "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:23 AM:
" And Peachee-Because of the huge chip on your shoulder regarding your paranoia that your religious beliefs are being stepped on you can't see what this will do to the students and teachers. It will be entertaining to watch. I believe your 'group' of which you may be the head "groupie" will be the most offended in the end. "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:16 AM:
" Peachee-You know what is really hypocritical here? I think the majority of parents would be horrified if their son or daughter ripped up a document in a teacher's face. I have a feeling that you would discipline your child for that. You're giving this kid a pass. Explain that to me. "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:10 AM:
" Peachee-We could flip that one right back at you. "
horselover wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:06 AM:
" Peachtree, I think you are being narrow minded. This WILL open a can of worms. This will give freedom not ONLY TO CHRISTIAN'S but to every other religion. We CAN NOT discriminate. So what part don't you understand?? The assignment?? His behavior justified?? "
Peachee wrote on Apr 4, 2008 11:03 AM:
" buckets... you claim this lawsuit is ridiculous but the claims filed by Barnes was "right on" for removing the cross on cross hill. It is alright for groups that dont like to see anything christian getting their way..but when a christian gets offended and feels their rights are being affected they become ridiculous. This game works both ways...too bad the rules dont! "
Peachee wrote on Apr 4, 2008 9:23 AM:
" buckets..take that meaning how ever you choose. No matter how I define it you will be right and everyone who doesnt see things your way will be wrong. "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 9:06 AM:
" Peachee-I am not a "groupie"...would you care to define that? In fact, I am pretty 'mainstream'. You think that everyone who doesn't want religion in a public school is a "radical"? I attend countless concerts with religious music. It doesn't bother me a bit..I would prefer it not be religious but it's not an issue for me. The kid didn't follow the assignment and was disrespectful. It's terrible that this veteran teacher has to be dragged through this. "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:59 AM:
" Phil,
"...when they address permissible subjects in response to class assignments..."
The subject was clearly NOT permissable given the teacher's assignment and the school's stated policy (which the kid chose to tear up). "
Peachee wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:55 AM:
" buckets...you are a little extreme dont you think? How many years have we been enjoying nice,pleasant musical concerts...but..now you and your groupies want to make sure that you get your way..just because in your mind you are right and everyone else is wrong. I think that the schools have done alright the way that they are..I dont really care what the kids draw..I have seen numerous demonic drawings..they dont offend me....christian drawings dont offend me...it is just a bunch of radicals (such as yourself) that have to make a big deal out of something that has been going on for as long as I can remember. If a kid wants to draw a cross...so what...as far as him tearing up the contract..I dont imagine that you have ever had a temper tantrum and done something that you were not to proud of..we all make mistakes buckets. "
zoomer wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:49 AM:
" Phil O'Bates
Thanks for the legitimate reply.
Now, I really wish those who support AP's actions would give answers to my other postings and tell us what they think should be allowed or not allowed in the public schools.
Can A.P. give an answer on a biology test that all of the earth's people and animals were on board a boat about 3500 years ago and expect to get a passing grade? "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:29 AM:
" Peachee-In the name of 'art', do you someday want to go to a concert and hear Satanic chants? "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:27 AM:
" Peachee-That would be a fine evening indeed! "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:26 AM:
" Chris King-Don't you have an Ilk's meeting to attend? "
Peachee wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:25 AM:
" and wont it be a fine evening when we go to school choir and band concerts and there are no more religious songs..because some of you are SO offended by anything christian!
"
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:21 AM:
" The 17 year old is a CHILD? He's a child alright, he's a brat. Right now, as a senior, he should be placing his energy on getting ready for college, not this ridiculous lawsuit. "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:14 AM:
" Horselover-I do believe adults...mainly his parent's, pushed him to take this to court. If any of my kids ever ripped up anything in a teacher's face they would be soundly disciplined. Then I would instruct them in the proper way to express their views. This student owes that teacher and anyone else present an apology. And his parent's should be ashamed of themselves to bring this to court. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:11 AM:
" When you were still a CHILD, how much insight or forethought would you have had when your constitutional rights were being trampled? Yes, an adult tearing up the paper like that would have been inappropriate. But for a 17 year old (he must not be 18, or we would hear his full name)I would have to give him a pass on his reaction. On second thought, an adult would probably of had suspicions about signing such a document in the first place. Quit placing blame on the student. Besides, can anyone, much less a child, sign ANY document waiving their constitutional rights? It is the policy, established by seasoned adults, not the child that created the controversy! "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 8:07 AM:
" It will be a fine day when we go to an open house and there in the art room are fruit bowls with crosses, landscapes with Buddhas, portraits with Satanic verse and anything else students can randomly place into an artwork in the name of whatever obscure religion is their choice of the day. These are teenagers you're dealing with...get ready! "
buckets wrote on Apr 4, 2008 7:51 AM:
" Phil-You were actually "torn" regarding the student's reaction? "Might have been a better way"? He had many avenues available to him if he cared to use them. "He dealt with the situation as best as he thought he could." This SENIOR will be out in the real world soon. His reaction was childish and aggressive. It's no wonder this teacher told him to get out of her face and her classroom. I think she showed great restraint. "
horselover wrote on Apr 4, 2008 7:12 AM:
" Yes, art maybe an expression of one's idea. But, when kids are in public schools they have to follow the rules. No exceptions, period. Teacher's have to maintain some sort of discipline. I side with the school district and empathize for the teacher. She only made an assignment to do a landscape, that's it, nothing more, nothing less. Had he drawn a picture of an old church in his landscape, that probably would have been okay, but he deliberatly wanted to cause a scene of controversy. How sad that he has a bunch of Christian adults pushing him to do this. "
horselover wrote on Apr 4, 2008 6:56 AM:
" Happycamper, you are probably right. In the military he wouldn't get away with wearing a big cross around his neck outside of his uniform for display, they can wear it underneath. Jewelry will be next though for schools too, after all, some may find it offensive.... the writing is on the banana and art is out the window. If he can not do an assignment without expressing his religion, he deserves a zero. Sounds like they have had it with him pushing the boundries. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 4, 2008 5:07 AM:
" Still life will never be the same. I believe in the future we will see a decline in the number of art teachers. Maybe no art at all because of the problems this will create. The writing is on the banana. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 11:02 PM:
" zoomer,
I wasn't trying to decieve. I was looking up other cases of similar subjects and I ran across an article on the Baldwinsville School District v. Peck case. While skimming the artical I saw the quote by Alito and cut and pasted it. Since I saw that the counsel for Peck was claiming victory I assumed the Supreme Court had sided with them. By the Supreme Court not hearing the case, it does still buttress the case that schools can not censor religious expression when it is part of an assignment. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:52 PM:
" to happycamper,
As to the kids reaction, I'm somewhat torn. On one hand I'm glad to see that he is willing to stand up for his right of religious expression. On the other hand my gut tells me that there might have been a better way to deal with his principal and teacher. While I believe he will win his law suit against the school, I don't see this as a great Christian witness. I think what needs to be understood is this is a teenager trying to deal with a liberal school system. Since I wasn't there, I will give the kid the benefit of the doubt that he dealt with the situation as best as he thought he could. "
Fred wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:38 PM:
" Does anyone know if the Tomah school district allows students to wear necklaces or other forms of jewelry that contain crosses of crucifixes? If they do, they would be allowing some form of religious expression in the school. Does this cause a disruption to the learning environment? I seriously doubt it. Similarly, I don't see where a religious symbol in someone's artwork does either. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:37 PM:
" to Happycamper,
I don't know if your post was to me, but I'll give you my opinion. First, art is largely subjective. So if the assignment is to draw fruit and this kid sees banana's with John 3:16 on them, then who are you to say that's not how he sees fruit? Second, his banana's with John 3:16 on them can still be graded based on other things like shading, use of color, or other such things. What the courts have ruled is that the teacher can't force the kids to draw specific religious symbols because the teacher is the representative of the government and they can't enforce a religion. "
horselover wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:11 PM:
" They got their 5 minutes of fame on Glenn Beck if anyone say it, I only heard it on XM while driving but I guess the picture was showed, along with other drawings by students, now, my question is was this from the same assignment or a different one, I would say probably a different assignment altogether and NOT a landscape as instructed.....geez, I'm appauled at all the errors that are made by the media regarding things but then when they got their info from one side, well, there ya go. I hope AP gets stuck with all the legal fee's. The school SHOULD NOT be dragged through the mud over frivolous things without the WHOLE story... "
zoomer wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:58 PM:
" Phil O'Bates
You strongly imply, if not state as fact, that Baldwinsville School District v. Peck was a case decided by the U.S. Supreme Court and the words of Alito were written as part of that decision. You either have been given erroneous information or you are trying to deceive.
The quote of Alito was before he was on the Supreme Court.
The U.S. Supreme Court refused to hear the case. Alito's language does not apply to Tomah. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:30 PM:
" If the assignment was to draw a bowl of fruit, could he put scripture all over the bananas? Are you advocating that all art projects can have religious symbols in them regardless of the subject? And how do you feel about the student's reaction? "
guido wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:30 PM:
" Demonic masks in the metals room? I'm in there A LOT and I've never seen them. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:49 PM:
" 5496
Read again...As for this art issue, see 'Baldwinsville School District v. Peck': "Justice Samuel Alito wrote that schools may not censor religious viewpoints of students when they address permissible subjects in response to class assignments or instruction." Try to stay on topic. If he is given a division assignment, he needs to do division. He was given an art assignment, he did art. The teacher can grade his art, but she can not censor it, regardless of what a school policy says. The Supreme Court says different. "
froggylips wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:49 PM:
" Also from the Tomah Journal:
“In short, in the earliest public schools, teachers taught, and students listened,” Thomas wrote. “Teachers commanded, and students obeyed. Teachers did not rely solely on the power of ideas to persuade; they relied on discipline to maintain order ... As originally understood, the Constitution does not afford students a right to free speech in public schools.”
Right On! "
froggylips wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:46 PM:
" From the Tomah Journal:
The family of A.P. which lives in Camp Douglas, is seeking:
*Full academic credit for A.P.’s project.
*Removal of any record of any disciplinary action taken against A.P. in regard to the matter.
*A ruling that high school art teacher Julie Millin’s grading policy prohibiting religious expression violates the First and 14th Amendments of the U.S. Constitution.
*Recovery of legal fees.
"
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:38 PM:
" re:phil
So if he was given a division assignmenet but decided to do addition istead that is his choice? "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 3, 2008 7:32 PM:
" Yeah, yeah, yeah, Phil. But the fact remains that the kid was just itching for a fight, ignored the assignment and then became belligerent when told he was in the wrong. HE DIDN'T FOLLOW THE ASSIGNMENT. PERIOD.
If he wants to invoke a deity in every assignment he should go to a private school. Otherwise follow the rules and don't tear them up when you have a hissy fit. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 6:02 PM:
" 5496,
You need to learn context. It was an art assignment. He turned in art. If he was given a math assignment and turned in his art, he should recieve a failing grade. If he was given an English assignment and turned in his art, he should recieve a failing grade. Your hyper-extreme, non-contextual fears are unfounded. However, the truth that public schools are tolerant of every view except a conservative Christian one, is not unfounded. As for this art issue, see 'Baldwinsville School District v. Peck' "Justice Samuel Alito wrote that schools may not censor religious viewpoints of students when they address permissible subjects in response to class assignments or instruction." "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 6:01 PM:
" Tribaud: Nice post. Take cover! "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 3, 2008 5:32 PM:
" Oh, boy, Tribaud. Now you're in for it!
"
horselover wrote on Apr 3, 2008 5:02 PM:
" tribaud, right on. If he wins, everyone wins, not just the Christians, this opens the door for everyone......remember, we can NOT discriminate!!!! "
tribaud wrote on Apr 3, 2008 3:51 PM:
" Seriously Now: there is not one faith that has been "proven" to exist. The current Christian faith is indeed based upon the bible which is a collection of stories handed down thru the generations and ultimately translated into written form. The variations in the telling depend upon which version of the bible you read. I'm not insulting the Christian religion in any way, just pointing out that your statement that Jesus was indeed a real person, has no basis of proof. I have no ill will towards you for believing in God, same as I have no ill will towards those that choose to believe in Buddha, Alla, the Goddess, etc. Just recognize that all faith is a belief system and that beliefs within that system should not be represented as fact when there is no proof / evidence to support it. "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 3, 2008 3:49 PM:
" No, Fred, of course you weren't mistaken. No one on this forum ever is. Everyone is always absolutely correct. (especially the right-wing christians and the left-wing secular fundamentalists.)
C'est la guerre! "
buckets wrote on Apr 3, 2008 2:45 PM:
" To 5496-I think you hit the nail on the head. An observation...Typically forums regarding a 'religious' topic are overwhelmingly one sided. I am not seeing that support on this board. It appears that most of the posters that usually comment on these topics are silent. I believe they see how this will open up a can of worms and in addition could not possibly condone the behavior of this student. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 2:03 PM:
" Re: Minnesota
The assignmenet was clear. The guidlelines were set, the product explained.,He did not follow the instructions and for that this veteran teacher gets labeled and drawn through the national tabloid muck. What teacher will stand up to the kid in English class who "chooses" to express his "faith" in an essay that was supposed to be about one thing else. How about you get real here? "
MinnesotaResident wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:43 PM:
" I missread/missunderstood about which teacher it was. However, my comment/question still stands, even more so. But why are you suggesting that "if" the student wins, then, all the students will then be able to turn "any" assignment into a religous one? This is an ART class.. not a math class or an English class. And I think most kids are able to figure that out. *sheesh* How about keeping this in context. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:24 PM:
" If the student wins, from then on any assignment that a kid wants to turn into a religious assignment in any class is okay right? "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:17 PM:
" They were not saying the artr teacher was Hindu but the social studies teacher, and he is not. They didn't even describe tha artifacts in the history room accurately which is why world religions are taught BY LAW in Wiscosnsin history classes.They should take the class. "
MinnesotaResident wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:09 PM:
" Here is a bit of information that someone shared with me concerning this situation and after looking at the boy's drawing he gave me this information:(he thought that the cross looked like it was burning)
"The original symbolism of a burning cross was one of Unity and Loyalty. Its first known use was by Scottish warriors who ran from village to village to summon warriors to the battle field in defence of Scotland."
Let's step back and try to think "outside the box" here and stop the cruel comments.
"
MinnesotaResident wrote on Apr 3, 2008 1:03 PM:
" Some ppl consider Christianity a "mythology", so then, if that is the case, why would ANY of you be upset by this? It would be just another "symbol" much like the Budah statue or the "demonic" pictures or the Dragons. Why would the teacher have thought that it was "religous" if in fact she is "Hindu". Why should she care? Why is everyone so afraid of this? I find it really pathetic!!
can anyone point to a "Christian" from that school who has filed ANY complaints about the other "symbols" either being given and dislayed as class projects or gifts???? Please inform me if I am wrong. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 12:39 PM:
" Re: Fred,
When he does win, that will cause the disruption. Teachers in theory will not be able to control any assigments so everything the zealous young belivers want to turn into recruiting for Jesus will be okayed. What teacher is going to risk holding them to any assignmenet after this attack on a well meaning christian, veteran teacher? You are creating the schools you want and they will not be very functional( but that will be perfect for you after all you really want private schools only). Walk Tomah's halls and you will see teachers who have no idea how they will be able to run their classes.You you wonder at the attrition in the teaching feild wonder no more. "
Fred wrote on Apr 3, 2008 12:29 PM:
" No, I am not mistaken about the Tomah student’s Constitutional rights. There is no evidence in this article that the Tomah student intended to disrupt the learning environment by including religious symbols in his artwork and there is no evidence that it was disrupted as an unintentional byproduct. In connection with a case where students wanted to wear black arm bands in the schools to protest the Viet Nam War the supreme court ruled that, "undifferentiated fear or apprehension of disturbance is not enough to overcome the right to freedom of expression." Thus, the students won this case and I believe the Tomah student will also win his case if it goes before the Supreme Court. The school’s policy, its actions to enforce it and the resulting nationwide publicity of this case were far more disruptive to the learning environment than the student’s artwork. "
zoomer wrote on Apr 3, 2008 11:55 AM:
" Chris King
You refer to Christians as if there is only one belief system among Christians. Is the Pope the Anti-Christ or is he infallible in matters of faith and morals? Can a woman become a member of the Christian clergy, including a rank such as bishop, or does the Bible require that women can never have authority over men? Is the Catholic church the only "true" Christian church and all other Christian denominations "broken" as the Pope just said or are all those who believe in the divinity of Jesus true "Christians"?
I really would appreciate getting answers from you. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:59 AM:
" Yeah, that's what I've been trying to say?! Anyway, for those that care, I can state without any doubt that AP is not seeking monetary damages. I just checked out a link on the Alliance Defense Fund website, and they are only seeking a reversal of the school policy and restoration of the student's grade. Here is the link to the actual legal affidavit.
www.telladf.org/UserDocs/APComplaint.pdf "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:37 AM:
" re;Chris
How dare that teacher teach Hindusim with passion? It should be as bland as possible correct? What silly nonsense that figurines of all types( many gifts from kids) of religions in a history class( a class in which the state orders us to treach world religions) is somehow construed by the nuts on your side as discriminating against christians. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:36 AM:
" One cannot have a logical response to your argument because the argument is not logical. Kind of like floating scripture in a landscape....doesn't make any sense. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:33 AM:
" Re:
Chris King,
Ilk means type. Try not to get so silly.You are truly a purveyor of hate and i know it. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:30 AM:
" Ilk...it just means that you're all alike...the same kind...not like it's some kind of club...that would be an Elk... "
Chris King wrote on Apr 3, 2008 10:20 AM:
" "...your ilk...and the nuts you are representing..." ain't that nice! I knew it wouldn't be long before I was part on an ilk. Now, how long until someone compares me to Hitler? Seriously, the name calling starts when there's no logical response to overwhelming argument! "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:45 AM:
" Fred, you're somewhat mistaken on the issue of free speech rights ending at the schoolhouse door.
The courts have been fairly consistent in ruling that schools have great latitude in protecting the learning environment from distractions.
For example, the Tyler Chase Harper case (also pushed by the Alliance Defense Fund) in California where the court declared that the young man's anti-gay t-shirt interfered with other students' right to learn.
This appears to be another case where the plaintiff is looking for the right to disturb the basic function of the school which is teaching.
Of course this was in the 9th Circuit and the ADF promises to push it to SCOTUS and beyond. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:37 AM:
" Re:
Chris King,
What you and your ilk are doing is politicising every aspect of our society.It will damage schools and other institutions immeasurably. Shame on you and the nuts you represent. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:33 AM:
" Looks to me that they are advocating a student may put whatever he wants in a art project. I suggest the art teachers from now on just say "draw" and let them have at it. I guess we can't define LANDSCAPE as scenery anymore. Maybe Chris King sees words floating in the air... "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:21 AM:
" Re: Chris King
So if the kid had made a gay agenda staement in his landscape painting that would be okay under your rules? Or a satanic reference as well with possible gang connections. "
5496 wrote on Apr 3, 2008 9:19 AM:
" Re:
Phil,
Let me get this correct. So I give an english assignment about oceans and little Joihnny can turn that into a paper on Jesus? I assign ploynomilas for algebra and he decides instead to make a speech about Vishnu? School under your nerw rules will be a zoo and a war zone. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:59 AM:
" I was going to comment, but then looked at all of the other comments and figured most of the angles had been gone over. I did read Chris King's last couple of posts and have to say that I agree with him 100%! What liberals don't seem to understand is that the Schools can't force the kids to draw pictures of Jesus or Buddha or Mohammad or whoever. However, if the students wish to draw or talk about their religious beliefs in school, they can. Kids don't 'surrender' their constitutional rights when they walk into the school. The Tomah teach and principal have erred big time and they will be forced to pay or apologize. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:51 AM:
" Chris King: I think you are delusional. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:23 AM:
" ...and yes, even if that faith isn't Christianity. The various faiths in the nation and especially homosexuals have done an excellent job of fighting for their right to express themselves. However, they have done it at the expense of the rights of Christians! I don't have a problem with all points of view being expressed and letting the chips fall where they may. I have plenty of faith to know that those who God choses to call to him will do so. In spite of all the other voices out there, they will choice to hear the voice of truth. However, the homosexual agenda in particular and others in general are actively working to silence anyone that disagrees with them. Again, tolerance for every point of view, except the Christian point of view. Isn't that ironic?! "
Chris King wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:18 AM:
" In one sense Christians are to be separate from the world, but in another sense as citizens, if we do not stand up for our rights, we will lose the ability to be true followers of our religion and adhere to our commandment to spread the Gospel. The thing that non-believers need to understand is that for true Christians it is impossible to separate our faith from all other aspects of our life. Our faith is our life and our life is our faith! When you come to that realization you will see that AP was not trying to stir the pot. He was simply expressing himself for who he truly is, and I will stand with him and do my part to ensure that Americans are free to express their faith. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 3, 2008 8:14 AM:
" WWJD? Well, I don't exactly know, but I do believe that Christ did say render unto Ceaser what is Ceaser and unto the Father what is the Father's. However, in America we the people are Ceaser. So, we do have both the Biblical authority under Christ and Constitutional authority under our nation's form of government to push just as hard as any other group to protect our rights! "
horselover wrote on Apr 3, 2008 6:45 AM:
" Yes, it will be VERY interesting to see how it turns out....this could open a "can of worms" so to speak....if he wants to be able to do this then the other religions also can do it and I am not talking the "mythology" creatures either! They would get to wear/create whatever they want to. This is freedom for CHRISTIANS only....is that fair?? Now, WWJD....would he be inflamatory or throw a fit?? I think not. The assignment was clear. I haven't seen any crosses OR scriptures floating across any landscapes for the 50 plus years I've been around. "
Fred wrote on Apr 2, 2008 11:01 PM:
" A student’s First Amendment right to free speech does not stop at the schoolhouse door. This isn’t just my opinion. It is supported by Supreme Court decisions and is well documented. Thus, by not allowing students to incorporate religious expression into their artwork, the school is violating the students’ first amendment rights.
Also, by allowing some students to express their religious beliefs but not others, the school is violating the separation clause because our Constitution does not allow publicly funded organizations to favor one religion over another.
I suspect the school district is trying to protect itself by not allowing religious expression in assignments. However, allowing students to express themselves religiously does not necessarily mean the school district is advocating the religious beliefs of the students themselves. In any event, this should be an interesting case in the courts.
"
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 8:57 PM:
" Hey zoomer, you ever hear that expression if sense were common, more folks would have it!! Some instances that applies here.... "
zoomer wrote on Apr 2, 2008 8:33 PM:
" Vindicator
I did ask a number of specific questions that have not been answered. I realize my "in other words..." question was very general but I thought it might help them to give some sort of a meaningful reply. Apparently it didn't. "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 2, 2008 7:46 PM:
" Chris King,no, it probably isn't about money in this case. The folks who are pushing the suit are notorious for filing these kinds of actions. The ruling they want would basically force the schools to give "christians" a free pass to proseletyze and be "loud and proud" during school hours and on school grounds. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 5:05 PM:
" Peachee-There may be issues at Tomah that need to be addressed. I am not from Tomah and have no expertise in their school policy. For me the issue is that A.P., with obvious intent to inflame, disregarded the assignment. The cross and floating scripture on the LANDSCAPE is completely out of place and put with intent to break the rule and stir up trouble. His behavior when confronted was aggressive and completely inappropriate. With the exception of the 'constitution gang', the only people coming to his defense seem to be Christians. Some are actually defending his actions of ripping up the document. Do you defend that? "
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:54 PM:
" Buckets, that's my point, had it been another religion he was insistant upon, would this even be happening?? How many of you Christians would tolerate the beliefs of other's??? Would you stick up for this kid if he was Muslim, or Budda, Wicken(?) or any of those other religions?? The answer is NO, most would be siding with the teacher instead of judging her and the school district. Why?? Because most "Christians" only tolerate their religion. That is why we have separation of church and government. "
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:40 PM:
" Well Chris King, I bet this DOES have to do with money.....anyway you look at it, attorney's cost money. The article clearly states that he is suing.....which to me mean's monetary award for his "suffering". And by all the comments regarding a minor's free right to speech, expression of religion. Tomah school district is no different than other school districts when it comes to the "touchy" subject of offending others. Most teacher's I am sure are Christian, but they follow the rules, they don't push them and they should allow students to either!! "
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:29 PM:
" By the way, he can do all the religious drawings he wants, AT HOME or for his church. He is already allowed to wear shirts that express his religion, maybe it's time for school uniforms for everyone!!! "
Peachee wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:28 PM:
" buckets...you always seem to be pointing a finger at anyone that makes a bad comment as a christian making bad comments..thus making them look like bad christians...do you have a magic 8 ball that you shake when you make your responses (that is the how you know if they are christians or not)??? "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:25 PM:
" Horselover-If he were Muslim I am sure many of these people would be outraged that he would dare to draw his religious symbols on his artwork. That he didn't follow the rules. A very hypocritical bunch. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:22 PM:
" I'm not exactly sure what relief AP and his family are seeking, but isn't a little presumptive to assume that it is all about the money? I could see the result simply being the reversal of the school's policy and restoration of an honest grade based upon the student's artistic abilities. Everyone gets all up in arms when they think there pocket books are getting screwed, but it would appear that the Tomah district has ultimately adopted a policy which violates constitutional rights pertaining to free speech. I don't see that being frivolous in the least bit! "
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:20 PM:
" Is mythology considered "demonic".....according to some it must be!! Dragons and wizzards oh my! The kid did not show respect by riping up a contract and although they may NOT be legally binding it is an agreement between the school and the student and the rules were clear and he chose to ignore them and demonstrated it in a non Christian way. Making a point in front of the class, causing a scene. Would it be any different if he was Muslim??? the same instructions would apply at a PUBLIC school. "
horselover wrote on Apr 2, 2008 4:13 PM:
" Sounds like this kid has been pushing the limits all along. His parents should have put him in a private religious school if they are so religious. The Supreme Court has already ruled separation of government and church. But, on the other hand.....I'm sure if he win's this frivolous lawsuit, college is paid!! If not, I hope the family has to re-imburse the school for any and all legal costs. As a tax payer, I'm not happy with this young man's antic's at to get money for college. "
Vindicator wrote on Apr 2, 2008 3:34 PM:
" re: zoomer
Newsflash.......religion is introduced on a daily basis in public schools.
As for your question on the "level" of someone being offended , no one can answer that. It
depends on each individual.
"
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:43 PM:
" Re:zoomer
The samne kids wears shirts almost every day proclaiming his religious beliefs and it is certainly okay. I wonder when this pandoras box gets opened how eveyone will feel with the shirts proclaiming worship of other deities.Perhaps satan? "
zoomer wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:12 PM:
" Chris King and Minnesotaresident:
Would either of you answer the questions I asked in my previous postings? Put another way, how offensive to another student's religious beliefs can a school project be?
John 3:16 is often used to proselytize for Christianity. Should a student be able to carry a "John 3:16" sign at school? If your answer is yes, how big can the sign be?
These are serious questions of the kind that must be answered by those who advocate for the introduction of religion into the public school system. If you do not had reasonable answers, at least say so, rather than continuing to make the kind of comments you have been. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:10 PM:
" Chris King-Your agenda is showing. "
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:07 PM:
" Re:Chris King
By the way, she was standing up for what she believed. Classroom rules were in place to avoid hassels over anyone's religious beliefs and symbols and she simply tried to enforce the rules that this kid knew existed DUH. You simply do not like anyone who does not march lock step with your radical right agenda. "
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:04 PM:
" Re;Chris king
I suggest that you are a liar and a biggot. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 2:00 PM:
" To: Chris King:"Spineless fools"...is that really what you think of your school board? Have you ever served or ran for school board? Probably not. Do you work with youth? Probably not. Actually, I hope not. That wouldn't be a good situation. I wouldn't want you around my kids. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:52 PM:
" Chris King-Let's see...teacher's religious beliefs...mute point. Then why are YOU bringing up the school board's religious affiliation? What does THAT have to do with any of this? "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:50 PM:
" Minnesota resident- And in home ec. was he baking brownies shaped like crosses? Come on...this kid's just trolling for a fight. Now he's got it and Fox news is eating it up. "
minnesotaresident wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:47 PM:
" to froggylips: quote "Sometime after that meeting, the boy’s metals teacher rejected his idea to build a chain-mail cross, telling him it was religious and could offend someone, the lawsuit claims. The boy decided in March to shelve plans to make a pin with the words “pray” and “praise” on it because he was afraid he’d get a zero for a grade."
That would have been a beautiful project. The teacher denied it because he thought someone could be "offended"?
It dosent sound like he is "pushing religous limits" LOL that's hysterical!
"
Chris King wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:28 PM:
" Whether the teacher involved is a Christian is a mute point. She was reinforcing an unconstitutional school policy. Furthermore, as a teacher and advocate for children, she should have had the conviction to stand against a policy that is discriminatory towards one's particular religious beliefs! Finally, the FACT is that Tomah schools have fostered an environment that at the least disallows the expression of religious points of view, and at the the worst fosters hostility towards the particular religion of Christianity. Last point, for now, I'm sick of the Tomah school board and educators espousing to be Christians, but when the time comes to stand up for what they believe in they crumble like spineless fools! Have some faith in the Father, whom you deny in action, and don't be afraid to stand up for what is right. Cultural Christians are not true believers! "
minnesotaresident wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:21 PM:
" " a being with a horned head and protruding tongue hang in the art room "
How is that getting past the "contract" ???? Is it because "the teacher" allowed it? Is it by her definition NOT violent and NOT sexual in connotation?
We all have to remember too that Fact checking isn't what it should be. Until the facts actually come out, via the teacher herself, A.P., the parents, the school, etc..I will remain on the side of the student.
"
froggylips wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:19 PM:
" 5496 : I was just making a point that things were different when we were in school. Things have changed, almost to the exact opposite. This student should have followed the rules, acted like an adult and showed his teacher respect for enforcing the rules that we set by the district...not by her. From what I've read above, it sounds to me like A.P. likes to push the religious limits in all his classes. "
happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:15 PM:
" landscape n. An expanse of scenery that can be seen in a single view: a desert landscape. A picture depicting an expanse of scenery. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:11 PM:
" I am looking out my window at the LANDSCAPE. I see trees, bluffs, clouds but that's funny, there's no scripture floating around in the sky! "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 1:03 PM:
" It is appalling to me that all of the Christians are condoning #1. Not following the rules of the classroom #2. Disrespecting a teacher #3. Seeking money and glory in the name of the cross. He was wrong and I truly believe that if any of your children behaved in that manner, you would not condone it. Why the difference in this case? The teacher was simply doing her job. Would you be proud if this were your child? "
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:59 PM:
" Re: Minnesota resident
Things happen in schools without parents knowing because parents are nowhere to be seen. "
minnesotaresident wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:56 PM:
" to Buckets: quote- "His teacher, Julie Millin, asked him to remove the reference to the Bible, saying students were making remarks about it. He refused, and she gave him a zero on the project."
Yes, I think that having the student "explain" the added items in his drawing would have been a better answer to this whole mess. Have you never seen or heard of an artist eplaining his work? "Acting as an adult" is to make a situation positive.
Why are you so demanding that A.P. be the one to suffer the consequences? You are so eager to make judgement against "freedom of expression".
I'll be anxious to see just how that "contract" holds up in court. Were his parents aware of it and did they approve? So many things happen in schools these days without the parents knowledge. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:55 PM:
" This teacher deserves a show of support. I figured she probably was Christian and just doing her job. I hope the student receives more than just a zero. "
zoomer wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:54 PM:
" To those who believe that students should be able to express their religious beliefs in school, I would like to have you describe what limits, if any, you would place on it.
Should a student be able to give a speech in class on his/her sincere believe that the Pope is the Anti-Christ, as several Protestant denominations teach? What about a work of art that would denigrate Mohammad, knowing that Muslims sincerely belief that would be something akin to sacrilege? What about kids preaching or carrying signs in the halls between classes?
These are serious questions. Where should the lines be drawn? "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:50 PM:
" Look at Foxnews.com "
fyi wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:44 PM:
" Where can I see a picture of this drawing "
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:42 PM:
" Re: Chris King
You are a fool.The art teacher is herself a Christian. What she did was set boundaries within her classroom. What she did was try to discipline someone who crossed those boundaries. This discipline is what you constantly whine is missing in schools.You sir are a poor representative of the religion you espouse, as are so many. "
5496 wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:38 PM:
" Re: foggylips
So, you yearn for the days when "they" were sent to another room because "they" didn't believe what you do? "
froggylips wrote on Apr 2, 2008 12:07 PM:
" The paintings on the walls are copies of famous paintings. Some have been there 15 years.
Look at the drawing that A.P. did for class, it isn't like he added a cross somewhere in the distant landscape. It looks like a cross on fire, front and center.
It is a law that school and church be separate. Do we all feel that it is just...NO. Rules are set to be followed.
Remember when we use to celebrate "the holidays" in school. Christmas was Christmas, not a "Winter Celebration", and we all got to dress up on Halloween. If a student didn't want to take part, they either stayed home or went to another room with all the other kids that didn't BELIEVE. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 11:40 AM:
" Minnesotaresident-The teacher was doing her job. In what way did she not conduct herself as an adult? And you think there is time in a classroom for 30+ kids to 'explain' their drawings? And "opportunity to tear anything up" ? Are you kidding? And I don't care if he tore up a picture of Mickey Mouse, students do not tear things up in a classroom, period. And what family has the time and money to bring a lawsuit over their child's lack of ability to FOLLOW THE RULES. Constitutional rights...that's not what this is about. If this was my son he'd be complaining about his constitutional rights from his bedroom where he'd be grounded for such disrespectful behavior. Do you have kids or have you ever worked with them? I think not. "
Vindicator wrote on Apr 2, 2008 11:22 AM:
" re: Teiresias 8:23am
Gee Teiresias the "rule" of the land for marriage
has always been defined as between a man and woman. Some "renegades" refuse to follow rules and pick their fights. Why is it in your "bias" that some "rules" apply and some don't? Let him make his case and see what happens. Maybe we all will benefit from the outcome. Tolerance and Diversity
can't be a oneway street as some of you would like it to be. "
minnesotaresident wrote on Apr 2, 2008 11:18 AM:
" Come to think of it, A.P. wouldn't have had the opportunity to tear anything up, had the teacher not pursued his removal of those items from the drawing. "
minnesotaresident wrote on Apr 2, 2008 11:04 AM:
" Perhaps the teacher could have had "A.P." stand in front of the class and explain his drawing "IF" there were so many students making comments on it. That seems to have been the teachers' 'trigger' based on how the article was composed. Maybe, just maybe, all of this would have been avoided. Certainly, the student, obviously not a mature adult yet, over reacted and tore up the already "non legal" document. The teacher should have acted more like an ADULT and teacher and found a way to make the situation positive. Yes, including contacting the parents for the tearing up scene, if in fact it was true and not embelished for the sake of the school. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 9:40 AM:
" If it was the Star of David and Jewish scripture floating in the sky, the end result would be the same..ZERO..and if the student ripped up the rules in front of the teacher...kicked out of the classroom. You are seeking bias where there isn't any. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 2, 2008 9:18 AM:
" So much for a "tolerant" environment! Tolerance for any view, except the Christian view. How about some Christian sensitivity training? Christianity is being persecuted in the post-modern world, and nobody but Christians themselves seem to care. "
Chris King wrote on Apr 2, 2008 9:14 AM:
" Well, it looks as if the diversity issue at Tomah schools is back again. This time, the school's failure to recognize the bias that "diversity training" holds against Christianity has been exposed for the violation of personal, constitutional rights that it is! The Tomah School Board pushed for diversity, but they failed to recognize that the diversity agenda is really about silencing any voice that says things are inherently either right or wrong. This student's work was censored on the basis of it's Christian message, which is a true representation of this student's experience, as reflected in his work. The schools policy forbidding religious expression in artwork has established an environment that is hostile toward Christianity! Students' constitutional rights violated, Case closed! "
teiresias wrote on Apr 2, 2008 8:23 AM:
" "CommonSense" you certainly have very little.
First, the group is called the "Alliance Defense Fund" not the "christian Defense Fund" which makes for an interesting bit of subterfuge.
Secondly, your argument rings hollow and shows your bias. The kid didn't follow the assignment and became belligerent with the teacher, tearing up the school's stated policy. He was itching for a fight and now has one.
Lets hear it for the "renegade judge" who will protect teachers from kids who refuse to follow the rules. "
Casual Observer wrote on Apr 2, 2008 8:15 AM:
" 5496: Thank you for the information. When I was in high school (approx 13 years ago), it wasn't a requirement at that time-that, or my teachers didn't follow it. I'm glad to know this is a requirement in the classroom now. "
buckets wrote on Apr 2, 2008 7:12 AM:
" Commonsense-You are missing the point. For instance, if he drew a landscape that encompassed 'Star Hill', complete with the cross, I think the teacher probably would have let it go because it would be a true landscape. Or a lovely countryside,complete with a country church. I believe the student was trying to be inflammatory and create a problem by dismissing the rules laid down for the assignment. And do you really condone the aggressive act of ripping up the rules in front of the teacher? The kid had an agenda and now he's having his 15 minutes of fame. Fox News is salivating all over this one. "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 5:15 AM:
" j.owen-An A? I'm sorry for your visual disability. And next time you comment, could you please have an interpreter do a follow up? "
Happycamper wrote on Apr 2, 2008 5:09 AM:
" If the student drew a tasteful nude in the horizon it would be inappropriate because it was to be a LANDSCAPE. It's a LANDSCAPE...if he was requested to draw a bowl of FRUIT and put crosses, stars, demons, whatever in it, he should receive a ZERO! Someday this young man will receive an unjust ticket...should he rip it up in front of the police officer? Would any of you want to teach a class of 30 teenagers with permission to draw whatever they like on any assignment? So if they are requested to draw a black and white sketch and put red in it, that's okay? "
dump stupid teachers wrote on Apr 2, 2008 3:58 AM:
" I am so very tired of hearing that yet another school is trying to stop the ability of expression of students by trying to take away their ability to talk about religion, at this point in their life we should encorage them to express themselves and be open with what they think. To make a drawing in which there is a cross in the picture and for the student to receive an F grade is just plain stupid. I would be interested to know what religion the teacher is and if there is a bias by that teacher to censor students with a view different from their own. "
CommonSense wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:55 PM:
" By the way Teiriasas, the men that helped in the founding of the Christian Defense fund are all upright, moral, Christian leaders...hence the name 'Christian Defense Fund'. The creation of such an organization was necessary due to the ACLU and renegade judges who chose to legislate from the bench. Of course if Christians had not allowed themselves to be walked on, and had they not remained silent the past 40 years, we likely would not be in the mess we are in. Look at the decay of the family, and society in general...the farther we get from Christ, the more depraved and amoral we become. "
CommonSense wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:47 PM:
" I am so glad that this student and his family are pursuing this legally. This student has every legal right to create art with a Christian theme. I never thought I would see the day that the Cross of Christ became offensive. It only offends those who are confronted by their sin, and unwilling to repent. The 'tolerance' taught in schools, is a biased tolerance; we are to tolerate those with deviant behavior, accomodate all the 'special needs', yet a young Christian man is not tolerated when he draws a picture. Who says art isn't religious? Look at Michaelangelo, Da Vinci, and countless unknowns...what a sad say we live in. "
J.owen wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:44 PM:
" thank you fred JACK "
J.owen wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:39 PM:
" looks like avery nice landscape art,take a time out and look around what do you see?reality or sience?Isee both. AP should do more with it on the market. sorry about your goat buckets someday you understand JACK "
Fred wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:32 PM:
" No school policy can supercede Constitutional rights. Although the Constitution forbids public school officials from directing or favoring prayer or other religious expression, students do not "shed their constitutional rights to freedom of speech or expression at the schoolhouse gate," The Supreme Court has made clear that private religious expression, far from being a First Amendment orphan, is as fully protected under the Free Speech Clause as secular private expression. Thus, I believe the Tomah student's rights were violated by the school district. "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:26 PM:
" Greenlite-Maybe in the past they had trouble with symbols displayed in artwork, hence the strict policy. I can just imagine some of the various 'symbols' that could show up as 'art'. This student was extremely disrespectful and may have been looking for an opportunity to cause trouble. I am suspicious of him immediately because of his reaction. "
Greenlite wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:24 PM:
" Zoomer: That sounds like the tactics used by ffr. Ffr looks for crosses, 10 Commandment monuments, etc. so that they can file a lawsuit. "
zoomer wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:13 PM:
" To:5496
Thanks for some factual information. There is very little of it in this series of comments. Your information puts the whole situation in a different light. It seems to me that there may be some folks in the school district who have been trying to create a situation where they could file a law suit. "
Greenlite wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:11 PM:
" Tieresias and Buckets: Surprisingly I also agree that the young man should not have torn up the paper in the manner that was descibed in the Tribune. He needs to show some respect. At the same time the school does not have the right to step on the free exercise clause of the 1st Amendment. "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:08 PM:
" notme-Remember that is what the lawsuit 'claims'. If that is true,it is wrong. We also agree that the landscape drawing was awful. I would not have a problem if the Bible quote was on a cross by the side of the road, but suspended in the sky is a bit much. The assignment was to draw a landscape. If people are inserting demons or whatever, that is wrong too. And ripping up the 'rules'...behavior like that is not tolerated in my home and I would hope not at any school.
J.owen-I can't respond to you because I have no idea what you said. "
Greenlite wrote on Apr 1, 2008 9:01 PM:
" Larry Burkett died in 2003, and D. James Kennedy died in 2007. "
J.owen wrote on Apr 1, 2008 7:42 PM:
" buckets: glad you put ahole in your bucket drain some water mybe you can read bettween the lines, yes my son got what he worked for[broke the same rules,but of cource the school did also]the project was complete how about an a-? JACK "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 7:19 PM:
" Teiresias-Yes, you are correct. Ripping up the document was very inappropriate. I think they reacted lightly due to the religious issue. It appears he was looking for a fight and now he has it. This classroom situation should not have escalated to the point it has. If my teenager did this he would be punished at home for this behavior and I would expect the same from the school. "
notme wrote on Apr 1, 2008 7:16 PM:
" "A Buddha and Hindu figurines are on display in a social studies classroom, the lawsuit claims, adding the teacher passionately teaches Hindu principles to students."
It seems to me the "policy" is violated EVERYWHERE in that school. Therefore, the student had reasonable expectations to believe he could violate the policy also. If the students cannot speak up about their beliefs, then the teachers(all of them) must silence themselves as well.
From the looks of it, they need to give a bunch of those teachers “detentions” too. "
notme wrote on Apr 1, 2008 7:14 PM:
" buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 5:34 PM:
buckets, I agree a zero(0) is what I would give that picture as well because it is NOT a very good rendition of a landscape
BUT
"asked him to remove the reference to the Bible" (CENSORSHIP)
"policy for the class that prohibited any violence, blood, sexual connotations or religious beliefs in artwork ... the Grim Reaper with a scythe" (double standard) "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 1, 2008 6:58 PM:
" I still suspect that if the kid had done any other inappropriate thing and threw a hissy fit, tearing up the rules, he would have been expelled. Maybe they should revisit his punishement. "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 6:58 PM:
" J. Owen..Your son most likely received a C as a result of poor sanding, mitering, etc. And you would give the student (A.P.) an A on his drawing? And what is that based on? So your son and A.P. both deserve A's because they both have a cross represented? Have you even seen the controversial drawing? I am baffled as to why you would give it an "A". "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 6:47 PM:
" The drawing is not a landscape. It is predominately a cross with a quote written in the sky. Unless a sky writing airplane has just passed overhead, it's not part of a landscape. He did not follow instructions, period. He did not complete the assignment as presented. Zero is the appropriate grade. And if kids were putting other unnatural symbols in their drawings, they should also receive a zero. "
J.owen wrote on Apr 1, 2008 6:36 PM:
" thank god for today is election day,maybe something good will happen to scools in the town.my son got a c on his two wood crosses that he made in woodshop last sem.to the student [ap] yes you should get the A and nothing less. JACK "
In Defense... wrote on Apr 1, 2008 6:35 PM:
" In response to "hemipowered" and their assertions that religion has been associated with wars, that is indeed, unfortunately true. However, I would encourage you to check out The "Guinness Book of World Records"(1992 is where these facts come from), and you will find under "Judicial Crimes: Mass Killings" that most killings of huge proportions did not come as a result of Christianity, but institutionalized atheisim. eg. 66 million killed under Lenin, Stalin and Khrushchev, and 32-61 million Chinese under communist regime since 1949, not to mention the unbelievable carnage due to the Nazis, are just a few examples. "
buckets wrote on Apr 1, 2008 5:34 PM:
" My first thought was that he should be able to incorporate the cross and quote because many times there are such displays in a 'landscape'. Then I went to the Fox news site to view the drawing. This is not a cross in a landscape...it is far from it. He received the grade that was appropriate...a zero. He completely disregarded the assignment. "
Greenlite wrote on Apr 1, 2008 5:04 PM:
" Teiresias: Sorry I mis-spoke, I did mean the 1st Amendment. Thanks for figuring that out. I think that the form of government we have has worked pretty well. Most of our 401K's are invested in corporate America. The TSA's you have are invested in the market. The IRA's you have are invested in the market. The mutual funds you have are invested in the market. I still believe you and I know better how to manage our lives and our money than the government. What has the Government run that has been eficcient? The Social Security System? Which Spend and Tax mongers have raped and pilleged to fund Socialistic Government Porgrams? The Welfare System has surely been successful hasn't it. I am at least glad you have admitted you are a left-wing socialist, who buys into anything that comes down the socialist pike. "
Teiresias wrote on Apr 1, 2008 5:03 PM:
" Oh, yes, by all means you dittoheads, go to the Faux News site and see what you are supposed to think.
They fabricate, you repeat. "
5496 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:54 PM:
" Re: Mindless nomind, Let's try one more time. World history teachers. All of them in Wiscosnin, are REQUIRED to teach Hinduism, Buddhism, Islam,Hjudasim etc as part of the curriculum.DUH
What the accusser fails to mention is that the same classroom that has Hindu artiftacs also has Jewish and Islamic and Eastern Orhtodox Christian and many more.It's called teaching. "
Nova wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:50 PM:
" Exactly, Willie. Shouldn't the ACLU be taking this case and defending this American's freedoms????? "
5496 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:50 PM:
" Re:vindicator,That wasn't what he was assigned.So if you assign addition but they do subtraction it's just fine? "
Vindicator wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:40 PM:
" Go to the Fox News website to view his art
project.......I'd give him an A+. He did
a nice job!
re: hemi @ 3:24pm........huh? "
5496 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:36 PM:
" Re:casual observer. World hostry classes are REQUIRED to teach world religions. "
5496 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:35 PM:
" Re minnesota resident: The Hindu items are in a classroom that teachers world religions as part of the state's requirements.Two of the objects were gifts from students to the teacher.The third was a personal object owned by the teacher repaired by a home iprovments class at school and waiting to be hauled home.. "
5496 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:32 PM:
" This is a tempest in a teapot. The teacher gave clear instructions for an assignement the student defied them end of conversation.No more about Jesus then a kid who won't listen to a coach. "
MinnesotaResident wrote on Apr 1, 2008 4:27 PM:
" to Hemi; After reading your comments, you seem to be filled with hatred. You also seem to be teetering on the edge of Marxism. Thankfully, someone reminded me of this:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;"
There are Hindu objects in the school. Why does that not upset you? I'd like to think that you aren't trying to advocate the supression of those who have a right to express their individuality in the form of art.
Like it or not, it is an "expression".
The teacher should have respected that as individual expression. If she were doing her job, she would have graded the student fairly and be done with it. (I wonder where she got her degree and if they supressed her artwork)
"
Casual Observer wrote on Apr 1, 2008 3:28 PM:
" hemipowered: Not sure what you mean by "imaginary people," but rather than remove any and all references to religion, why not offer a class that studies the similarities and differences? Wouldn't that serve to better open the minds of students and encourage them to think? Who knows--maybe by doing so, they can come to understand and diffuse the religious hatred that our generation could not. Just a thought..... "
Casual Observer wrote on Apr 1, 2008 3:24 PM:
" drewhaack815: Thank you. "
hemipowered wrote on Apr 1, 2008 3:24 PM:
" Vindicator 1:16 PM
Then in my freethinking ways the bible is make believe but the courts of the US has stated that the teachings of this book are to be vacated from public schools. These are public schools and must remain religion free. Science is proven there are no imaginary ppl or things. Science Rules. "
drewhaack815 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 2:58 PM:
" Casual Observer
wrote on Apr 1, 2008 2:09 PM
I like this comment. Makes alot of sense. "
drewhaack815 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 2:54 PM:
" What is so offensive about a cross? Or was it the John 3:16 that set the teacher and the district off? I think this teacher is on a power trip and I'm glad she is getting busted (I hope she takes the school district with her). What is the harm? ITS AN ART CLASS. "
Odin wrote on Apr 1, 2008 2:43 PM:
" It'd be interesting to see whether or not those who made the renderings of the Hindu goddess or Medusa actually believed in them or just thought it was something neat to draw. "
Casual Observer wrote on Apr 1, 2008 2:09 PM:
" My main question is this: WHY are people so afraid on any mention of religion at all? What ever happened to encouraging students to engage in meaningful conversation and debate? I'm not saying that one religion should be advocated over another, but by stifling ALL religious expression, administrators are telling students that rather than sitting face-to-face discussing differences and similarities in an attempt to reach a state of mutual understanding (and maybe even acceptance), it's better to ignore it altogether. Am I the only one that thinks this whole "mind-set" is SERIOUSLY screwed up? "
1234 wrote on Apr 1, 2008 1:47 PM:
" I totally agree - this is the United States of America! The land of the FREE! Why can only the atheists can have "religious freedom"?
The fact that they don't believe in anything - IS A BELIEF. I am a christian but I a
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