Michael Welch wrote on Jun 25, 2008 12:37 PM:
" I've known a lot of 'smart,' well educated and religiously sophisticated Christians, protestant as well as Catholic, and I've studied the Bible myself and find it a fascinating book with uh 'literally' something for everybody and I don't think one can be a truly educated person in the 'west' without reading and studying it. HOWEVER I myself don't 'believe' in it as an absolute -- it has too much really which is why it MUST NOT be read literally but MUST be interpreted as per the Jewish Talmud, the Catholic magisterium and somebody with a learned commentary. It's a very dangerous book in literal hands as history has proven and it still is... "
Chris King wrote on Jun 24, 2008 4:46 PM:
" Mr. Welch...
I completely agree with you. Unfortunately, it is typically atheists that tend to believe and promote the idea that Christians are somehow less informed, or that they arrived at their conclusions about God with no internal debate or questioning. On the contrary, most Christians have put just as much thought and study into their faith as atheist have their non-faith. In fact, Christianity is one religion that does encourage questioning.
How much documentation is there regarding atheists or others that set out to "prove" that God does not exist and they end up becoming DEFENDERS of the faith? It's something to think about! "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 24, 2008 12:17 PM:
" If the presumption of Christians is that atheists should attend Bible studies in order to get educated about religion, wouldn't the presumption of theists attending atheist meetings be that religionists get educated also -- about why THEY are 'wrong'? If only one side can proselytize while the other is harangued this is hardly 'free.' Christians have sincere beliefs based upon their study; they ought to acknowledge that atheists also have 'studied' and hold equally firm ideas and are not necessarily any more 'ignorant' than you are... "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 23, 2008 5:56 PM:
" Michael,
In case you forgot, the point I was making with Midwest Atheist was that he certainly would be welcome at any of 'my churches', even with his views. Honest Abe even attested to the fact that his discussion with Rev. Holt didn't get him 'banned' from church. I posted 'the church of your choice' so that I wouldn't be accused of setting up some kind of 'trap.'
Now, personally, I don't think it would be good witnessing for me to go to an atheist meeting. I'm sure that would be viewed as me 'attacking' their meeting. However, I still say that Bible studies benefit when people with sincerely desenting views show up and question. "
mindful wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:14 PM:
" If this bloggers club would all get together for a "free-thought" discussion, please send tickets. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 23, 2008 2:10 PM:
" Atheists by definition DON'T 'attend the church of their choice' eh? -- they purposely DO NOT attend because they already do not agree with a religionist view. However the childish argument over who thinks more 'freely' that goes on and on would be like saying that theists ought to go to the 'atheist meeting' of THEIR choice, sit quietly and then adjourn to some 'basement' to debate the issue. Religionists going in order to 'disrupt' would indeed be the same as atheists at the church doing the same. Nit-picking one-upping is what I call it and neither 'militants' impress me as especially 'free' of their prejudices... "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 23, 2008 1:53 PM:
" Michael,
My suggestion to atheists is to go to the church of their choice and go to one of the Bible study groups or small group studies. That is the venue to discuss or disagree with doctrine. The worship service on Sunday, with the sermon, isn't the venue for disagreement. Too many people are like you and think that Church is just about sitting in a pew and blindly obeying whatever the pastor or priest puts out. That's why the small group studies are so important, it gives individuals an opportunity to ask more specific questions and find out more information. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 23, 2008 1:26 PM:
" And I'd suggest to Christians that imitation of Christ is the sincerest form of worship and the one that attracts others FAR MORE than proof-texting with verses out of context. If one wishes to see a 'Christ-like' example in the 20th century the BEST one is the Hindu Gandhi. If Jesus had come back before January 1949 he'd have 'hung out' with Mohandas K., I'm sure. Gandhi was even 'crucified' -- assassinated -- by a fellow HINDU for teaching 'love' -- of Muslims! Now Jesus would have been right there with him on that!... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 23, 2008 12:08 PM:
" I'd avoid ANY 'club' that tells you WHAT you can think and HOW you can think about it and that most certainly includes the 'Christian' club. And I don't find warming a pew and sitting silent on Sunday but being 'permitted' atheistic thoughts such a boon to 'free thinking.' And if theists want to join atheist societies to argue with them then they ought to allow atheists to argue in their church. But the BEST thing is to let someone else call you 'free thinking' rather than insist on the claim for yourself!... "
mindful wrote on Jun 22, 2008 11:23 PM:
" midwest antheist, you speak of unbelievers, delusional people and conclusions. phil's right, the title of "freethought society" doesn't quite fit. secondly, there is no justice here. "
midwestatheist wrote on Jun 22, 2008 12:17 PM:
" Mindful,
Have fun "worshiping your god". We all know that he's so insecure that he requires people to continually tell him how great and big he is. And then, if you're really good, you get to go to heaven and spend an eternity of continually this self-obsessed deity how incredibly good, and incredibly huge he is, over and over and over- for eternity. And of course, us silly nonbelievers get to go to hell and roast for eternity because we had the audacity to examine the evidence objectively and conclude that it didn't support a belief in god. While he lets mass murderers who had death bed confessions and molester priests into heaven, people like Einstein and Ghandi get to burn. There's justice. "
Anna wrote on Jun 22, 2008 9:31 AM:
" It's interesting when bible 'scholars' use biblical quotes in English. If you loved it so much, you'd be in Hebrew, Aramaic and Greek school in order to try and understand it more. Posers. "
mindful wrote on Jun 22, 2008 7:11 AM:
" An ok article Joe and the two you spoke with. The posters are their usual selves-debating as normal-however, one sore thumb in the bunch. HonestAbe, seems to me you maybe view humankind as either clueless or brainwashed and likely all are pathetic. But, I'm off to be the "good little churchgoer" - for no other reason than to "worship my God". And, if you don't want to, guess what-that's fine with me and Pastor Holt. We exist only as messengers, doesn't mean you're forced to believe, quite the opposite. You will perhaps get what you want one day-that which you wanted on earth so don't worry, be happy. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 21, 2008 12:22 PM:
" As for 'PO'B' -- sigh! -- when the going gets tough the pious go soft. The old old OLD argument for the exploitation and misery of the mass of folks throughout the centuries of Christian dominence in Europe ('Christendom') was that some LUCKY day they'd all DIE and then 'go to heaven' and poof! No more suffering! Yeah but you have to be DEAD! Hmmm. The parable of the rich man and Lazarus was the 'model' -- but oddly: it NEVER stopped the exploiters (who called themselves 'Christian' too) from wanting that rich soft life! THEY NEVER seemed to worry about 'hell' except on the death bed when they said NOW they were 'sorry' AND they meant it -- can't take it with you after all! -- so they got BOTH, soft life AND paradise! What a deal!... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 21, 2008 12:15 PM:
" The word 'militant' apparently has acquired the connotation of 'terrorist Muslim militant' and consequently everyone wants to avoid it. I think it's interesting that Christopher Hitchens, a very prominent atheist, is a strong (uh 'militant'?) supporter of the WAR in Iraq BECAUSE he sees it as a battle against 'militant Islam' and therefore one religion down, two (three? four?) to go -- anticipating ultimate 'victory' eh? MY observation is that MILITANT atheists and MILITANT Christians LOVE to go at it with each other in yes a 'war' of words -- it's good fun. Okay but I have my own perspective and that's why I'm here -- not to follow YOUR especial 'permitted' definitions... "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 21, 2008 1:44 AM:
" I went back and forth with david holts radio program once, to appease a family member. Dave and I went back and forth, and I stumped him, even after he offered me money if I'd come to his church.
Our communication ended after I offended him by saying, instead of going to church, maybe time better spent would be fishing with a buddy in a boat over a budweiser sharing a laugh. Live in the now, not the possible afterlife. He was dismayed at my lack of respect for what he stood for. That isn't too open minded, in my opinion. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 21, 2008 1:40 AM:
" I think you answered your own question. If your churches are so accepting, why would they ever have implemented a 'ban' policy?
"""did get officially banned from a church"""
Thanks Buckets and Midwest, glad you liked the vid. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:21 PM:
" One more thing Midwest,
As a side note, if you did do that experiment and did get officially banned from a church, then you should post your response and results, because that is not something that Christian churches should do to those who are honestly searching and questioning. I for one would oppose a church that banned questioning people.
(Of course, that's assuming you do it in the right venue. Standing up during the worship service and talking over the pastor would not be the right way or venue. I think you know what I mean.) "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:18 PM:
" Midwest Atheist,
I'm not being dishonest, you could come to any one of 'my churches' and be accepted even if you never changed you belief system.
I wish more people who disagreed with what they thought Christianity was, would come to a church of their choice, go to any of the Bible studies or small groups and challenge the leaders and other Christians with their thoughts. The results would be great, because it would force some Christians out of their comfort zone, but show them the true reasonableness of Christianity. It would also open up the eyes of some people like you who have a bad idea of what Christianity really is. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:08 PM:
" Frank Zissou,
Your statement shows that you don't really understand science or science terms. The only 'proof' of your statement is that those creatures existed. Those things can be observed. What isn't 'proven' is that any of those creatures morphed or mutated into other creatures. In fact the proof of mutation is the removal of genetic information and not the addition of, and you would need millions of addative mutations for the type of transitions you mentioned. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:01 PM:
" Michael,
I have answered your question "why do the innocent suffer?" You just don't accept that as good enough. That's just different from saying your question is avoided, ignored, or not thought about. Does that mean that I think I have all the answers? Absolutely NOT! However, I know that Jesus does, and that His plan is still in play to allow more people to choose him, before He ends the reign of sin and Satan. At that point there will be no more suffering every where. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:51 PM:
" Buckets,
Christians are called to preach the Gospel to everyone, everywhere from someone far more authoratative than you....God.
Now, I understand if this is was the local news section about a bridge inspection and all I was doing was spouting off something like "Jesus is the Only way to Heaven." Now, while that statement is true and is more important than temporary Earthly issues, it wouldn't be very timely. But you need to relax and realize two things; 1)On open public forums people can talk about anything and in the long run that's good. 2)On the Faith page, you should definately expect to hear some 'preaching'. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:44 PM:
" Michael,
I have talked about Job. Satan basically tells God that Job is only faithful because of all of his comfort and wealth. God knew Job's heart and basically tells Satan that Job's faith is sincere and solid. God allows Satan to take away Job's Earthly wealth and comfort and Satan see's that God did know Job better than Satan. After the episode, Job is returned to Earthly comfort and wealth.
Now eventually Job died and now he is in heaven. This can be the same for everyone. It doesn't matter what your worldly situation is (comfort or misery) if your faith is based on God, then you will have spiritual peace like Job. And just like Job, regardless of your worldly comfort or position, you can one day experience unimaginable joy and peace forever with God. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:35 PM:
" Midwest Atheist,
First, I agree with your last post and thank you for posting it. I agree that the term "militant Christian" does not describe me or Chris. Like you pointed out to Michael, we aren't using or advocating violence against those who disagree with us. In the same sense I don't see you as a "militant atheist" or Michael as a "militant anti-Christian." You two are just people who sincerely disagree with Chris and I. Just because none of us come to an agreement on God, that doesn't make any of us "militant." "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Jun 20, 2008 3:22 PM:
" Michael,
By what definition to you label Phil or myself "militant"? What image comes to mind when you say "Militant"? Military? Violence? Aggression? Weapons? My point is that just because one is passionate about something, and is outspoken about something, that does not make them "Militant". Beheading infidels- that's militant. Suicide bombing- that's millitant. Phil and me- are we militant? No, just outspoken and passionate about our causes. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 20, 2008 2:51 PM:
" Militant Christian...Really? Wow, now that is an ignorant statement!
You assume that you know my politics because I posted a few bible verses. Come on, Mr. "freethinker", you've got to recognize how close minded that assumption is and that you are a hypocrite for doing so! "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 20, 2008 2:22 PM:
" QUOTING the Bible is NOT the 'problem' -- explaining it is. As per Job -- don't just READ it but think and talk about it. That would be a pleasure... "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 1:57 PM:
" I am not militant or atheist. I go with the "I don't know and you don't either." Whatever path Chris and Phil are on is not for me...that I am sure of. It was a nice article and I enjoyed the humorous videos. Find a different forum to preach on guys. Isn't there a group somewhere where you can exchange Bible quotes 24/7? "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 20, 2008 1:49 PM:
" Well I think there are 'militant Christians' too -- 'PO'B' and Chris King below for two -- but I think a 'militant atheist' is one who is opposing religious views without examining their sophisticated aspects. Too many times I read that biblical accounts are 'childish' and 'silly fables' -- they are not, as per the book of Job that I mention often. They contain real questions (AND answers) about 'God' etc., within a certain religious context and while there are 'militant Christians' who find these aspects uncomfortable, they are significant and important. I myself am in effect an 'atheist' but I'm NOT re: Christopher Hitchens say anti-religion; what I oppose is literalism and its dismal lack of understanding of other religious views... "
Frank Zissou wrote on Jun 20, 2008 1:23 PM:
" I Love seeing those little fish on the back of people's cars, but then I really love it when I see the fish spawning feet. Fish started in the ocean, then they went to fresh water, then the catfish crawled out of the water and became an amphibian, that amphibian love the land so much he decided to become a Reptile. Reptiles soon learned how to fly after the dinosaurs and then the duckbill platypus really liked taking care of its young and became a mammal. Sounds like a good bible story doesn't it. Too bad we have proof and if you don't see it, your parents never let you cross the road to get to the other side. "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Jun 20, 2008 1:23 PM:
" Michael Welch,
While I appreciate your posts, I would request that you not use the term "Militant atheists". I don't know any atheists who are 'militant', like Militant Muslims, for instance. Being passionate, and willing to stand up for principles, is not militant.
On a side note, for those of you who liked the George Carlin clip, you can find it and many, many other humorous videos here: http://midwestatheist.blogspot.com/search/label/--Humorous "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 20, 2008 12:45 PM:
" What's interesting here is how much easier it is to 'fight' militant atheists than to address the great question of monotheistic religious belief, namely why an omniscient and omnipotent, presumed 'good' God permits disasters such as quakes, floods, terrible diseases etc., to harm the innocent. I think it comes from a reluctance to face the Freudian, that God in the Bible is NOT the Perfect Parent, the unfailing superego, but a distinct personality with dangerous quirks, capriciousness and a sense of justice than is NOT altogether consistent and explicable. Why do the innocent suffer? God somehow 'wills it' but WHY? The most honest answer from the believer would be I think 'I don't know'... "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Jun 20, 2008 12:35 PM:
" Phil,
Let's not be dishonest here. Your church may invite me to come, but make no mistake, my continued attendance would only be welcome if I were willing to change my beliefs to theirs. If I didn't come to the ridiculous conclusion, as you have, that vicarious redemption through human sacrifice is justified and moral, than I would certainly not be welcome. As far as our group not being welcome, why don't you google "freethought society" and see what pops up. We are using the term correctly, you are not. "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 9:05 AM:
" Phil, Thanks for clearing that up for me. Learn something new everyday! "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:50 AM:
" Buckets,
go to http://www.comics.com/comics/pearls/archive/pearls-20080618.html "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:41 AM:
" Phil, I have no idea what you are referring to. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:35 AM:
" Buckets,
I do laugh at myself quite a bit, but Carlin wasn't mocking me, he was mocking my Heavenly Father, my Creator, the Creator of the Universe, my Savior, who loved me more than I can possibly understand, so much so as to suffer the most horrible death and humiliation that he was completely innocent of.
There are few things that I take very seriously: my God, my family, and my country. There is Christian based humor, but it doesn't mock or disrespect God.
Speaking of humor...did you read Pearls Before Swine the other day? If you did, then you will understand that if you pose more questions today, I probably won't be able to respond, because I'm going to be totally swamped the rest of the day. "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:35 AM:
" And please don't follow up with a multitude of quotes from the Bible. It only adds to the perception that you are a fruit loop. "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:32 AM:
" Yes, I would...Have you ever seen a 'roast'? Maybe the video makes you uncomfortable because it shines a light on how ridiculous SOME of your beliefs are. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 20, 2008 8:13 AM:
" A fear of God (solemn reverence)is the beginning of all wisdom. Would you think Carlin was funny if he was mocking your earthly father? Look at it from that point of view, and you will understand why many Christians cannot read or view things that mock God or Jesus. "
buckets wrote on Jun 20, 2008 7:47 AM:
" I watched the video...It's very funny and rings quite true to me...I don't believe Abe goes to the 'church' of George Carlin or is "embracing" it as you put it. It's a video...I would think if you are a true believer you could laugh a little at yourself. It's good for your health to laugh! "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 6:42 AM:
" Midwest Atheist,
One more thing hit me about your qualifier ("For those of you who aren't delusional, scientifically illiterate fanatics.") on who shouldn't show up to your restrictive club....Churches are more inclusive and accepting than your group. I've never seen a church advertise anything similar. All the churches I've been involved with invite all, regardless of your belief system, to come and join in.
Your group would turn me away, but my churches would never turn you away. So it raises the question on who really is more tolerant of those different from themselves. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 20, 2008 6:35 AM:
" A couple of things Abe,
Christianity isn't advertised as 'free thought' or 'freedom to do whatever you want.' What is free about Christianity is salvation through Christ (free for us, but bought with the highest cost). Christianity is about being a servant of the Most High, which means restrictions in thought and activity. Christians are told to think on good things (Philipians 4:7-8)and to respect God (Matt. 22:37).
In a way I agree that I am closed minded...I close my mind to things that are contrary to the truth of Jesus. In other words, I don't 'open my mind' and imbrace every piece of crud that comes along.
BTW, aren't you also saying...I'm right/mines better? If not, then why are you embracing something you believe to be inferior and wrong? "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:56 PM:
" Like religion isn't boasting restricted thought, you demonstrate that by not watching that video!
shesh "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:54 PM:
" Phil O'Bates, oh, you believe in souls and the malarky ,,,being closed minded,,,, now I understand. Maybe if you grew a sense of humor and actually listened to the entire thing, you'd hear how we view it to some degree.
But, who in religion is open minded? As well, nobody ever told you to have a sense of humor, so how else would you have one?
MINES BETTER / IM RIGHT ... is the theory in church, sorry, forgot that. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:18 PM:
" Midwest Atheist,
Your post reads like an oxymoron. If you are really "free thinkers", wouldn't that include people who think that Jesus was God and the evidence points to that?
You have just set up another club with guide lines for your idea of thought, or else you wouldn't have put on the qualifiers "For those of you who aren't delusional, scientifically illiterate fanatics." That isn't free, that's restricted thought. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:07 PM:
" Honest Abe,
I started watching it, but I don't find sacreligious humor funny, so I stopped. George can be funny about some things, but trusting in him on such a serious matter is not very smart. I wouldn't put to future of my soul at risk because of the 'humor' of a comedian.
There are lots of video's of atheists who converted to Christianity. This one I will post is long, but very enlightening because the man is a Doctor and not an entertainer.
(http://youtube.com/watch?v=nBG9VwdDotg) Here is a short one of Lee Strobel. (http://youtube.com/watch?v=2AT_bMuFBfs&feature=related) "
MidwestAtheist wrote on Jun 19, 2008 2:54 PM:
" For those of you who aren't delusional, scientifically illiterate fanatics, you may want to check out the La Crosse Area Freethought Society (http://www.lacrossetribune.com/articles/2008/06/19/faith/01nontheists.txt) Also check out our website at www.lcafs.org. Whatever you call yourself- be it atheist, agnostic, skeptic, secular humanist, pastafarian, etc. If you lack a belief in an invisible divine spaceman who can feel millions of contradictory emotions simultaneously as he eavesdrops on the thoughts of billions of people, while simultaneously maintaining the entirety of the universe, our group is for you. Check us out and meet up with like-minded (non-delusional) people. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 2:39 PM:
" Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:23 AM
No, that kind of door knocking has forced me to use a no solicitation sign as well as a front door camera to avoid these peddlers. They come with their wares at the ready (pamphlets), and a name to make the check out to.
Thanks for agreeing it is a business (real motive), its the first thing I agree with you on. Did you watch that entire youtube video I posted? "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 2:36 PM:
" Phil O'Bates, well, then your 'point' is that you have no idea of reality, because "Jesus" (and santa, and the easter bunny, etc)is NOT the "only" way. lol
Lazy athiest, now theres a hoot! I'm not one to impose on others, if you want to believe in blackbirds, more power to you, don't preach to me, and I won't talk you out of what you believe in (like an athiest).
My soul doesn't need saving ... that's what you believe in, not I ... plain and simple. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 2:30 PM:
" Chris King, when people are clueless and are brainwashed, the best they can do is quote the bible LOL
Pat yourself on your back now, you've made your difference for today ... good little church goer.
Really pathetic people can't process thoughts on their own and come up with their own conclusions.
Have a NICE day. "
billorights wrote on Jun 19, 2008 1:17 PM:
" Phil & Chris--I just came across this definition of Christianity.
The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree.
Gee...I guess that all makes sense after all. "
billorights wrote on Jun 19, 2008 1:06 PM:
" Phil & Chris---If, in any other area of human endeavor, you based your "facts" on a book written eons ago by ignorant, superstitious people, you would be judged to be insane or stupid. The reason you are not openly categorized that way in the U.S. is because there are so many of you.
Try to consider how you judge the "facts" of those who base their beliefs on Zoroaster, Mithra, Zeus, Odin, etc. Or the creation myths of the traditional Hmong that mankind came from a butterfly egg or the old Native American belief that the Earth came from a Great Turtle egg. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 19, 2008 12:24 PM:
" The problem with 'natural' disasters is the insurance one, that they are described as 'acts of God.' IF God is omniscient AND omnipotent (knows all, sees all, has ultimate power over ALL) then 'God' CAN, if His will, prevent these catastrophes. If hundreds of thousands die in an earthquake and the response is It MIGHT have been a million if God hadn't etc., WHY ANY AT ALL? Could NOT God save ALL? This is where the deist argument enters, the Jefferson one and Jefferson was no intellectual slouch. (One might read Dostoevsky's 'The Brothers Karamazov' for the brother Ivan's objection to God.) Wars etc., religionists always blame on humans -- fair enough -- but again in Job (read it yet?!) God chastises those who have accused Job -- they accused him falsely says God FOR JOB SUFFERED BECAUSE OF NOTHING HE, JOB, DID. God talking (READ IT hmm), not I... "
buckets wrote on Jun 19, 2008 12:15 PM:
" Too bad such a nice article brought out the religious fanatics. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:23 AM:
" Honest Abe,
Religions are man's attempt to reach God. They fail because the only way to reach God is through Jesus. True Christianity is a relationship with Jesus. It is not a religion of adhereing to man made traditions or dogma.
In that light, yes, religions are businesses. Even non-Christian businesses though, have a positive effect on society.
As to why people knock on your door. Some of it is forced, so that people meet a certain religeous obligation. Some of it though is a sincere effort by people to get the saving news of Jesus to those who are not saved. That kind of door knocking is true love. "
Phil OBates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 10:00 AM:
" Honest Abe,
About 'religious wars'...the BBC (hardly a conservative news organization) conducted a study that showed that there really have been very few actual religious wars. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/wtwtgod/3513709.stm) The War Audit says that although armed conflicts may take on religious overtones, their genesis invariably lies in factors such as ethnicity, identity, power struggles, resources, inequality and oppression - and one factor is often exacerbated by another.
Communism, a non-religious belief system has accounted for around 100,000,000 deaths, just in the last 100 years. Much more than religeous wars. (http://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/COM.ART.HTM) "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 9:29 AM:
" Honest Abe,
First, my point is that Jesus is the ONLY way, not a 'better' way. That isn't because I say so, but because Jesus says so.
Second, your statement seems to indicate that either you think standing for what you know to be correct is wrong, or that people can't possibly know what is correct. Either position is pretty ironic.
Third, an agnostic seems like either a lazy atheist or they want to hedge their bets in case their laziness is wrong. It's like your saying "I know that you can't know."
Fourth, in one sense you are right about being 'good.' Non-Christians can be good, but human goodness isn't going to save your soul. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 9:14 AM:
" Happy camper,
People posted their ideas, I responded with mine, what is wrong with that? Isn't that what this forum is for? If I responded with nothing, there would be the assumption that there wasn't an adequate response to there posting. I've seen some on these sites declare victory when their posts weren't responded to. If you find fault with my postings, why not point it out instead of just trying to mock?
Although, when I think about it...when you whine about multiple postings, don't contribute anything useful yourself, and then just mock, it actually benefits me. So I guess, I should thank you. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 19, 2008 8:27 AM:
" Non-believers do not recognize that the scriptures of the Bible are entirely sufficient for every issue! In fact, the scriptures are God's word. Therefore, the best thing a Christian can do is spread His Word. The Holy Spirit is able to move hearts with his Word, and many of you will be offended by the Word, but some of you just may have your eyes opened!
Keep it going Phil. When people get angry and personal, it is a good bet that your getting to them and their defenses are building up to prevent an emotional and spiritual breaking of their personal levies! That is, the defenses they build up around their minds to enable themselves to function in spite of the utter chaos going on around all of them and inside some of them! "
Chris King wrote on Jun 19, 2008 8:19 AM:
" 1Co 1:26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
1Co 1:27 but God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to shame them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world, that he might put to shame the things that are strong;
1Co 1:28 and the base things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God choose, yea and the things that are not, that he might bring to nought the things that are:
1Co 1:29 that no flesh should glory before God.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who was made unto us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption: "
Chris King wrote on Jun 19, 2008 8:17 AM:
" 1Co 1:21 For seeing that in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom knew not God, it was God's good pleasure through the foolishness of the preaching to save them that believe.
1Co 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after wisdom:
1Co 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness;
1Co 1:24 but unto them that are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
1Co 1:25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 19, 2008 8:16 AM:
" 1Co 1:18 For the word of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us who are saved it is the power of God.
1Co 1:19 For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, And the discernment of the discerning will I bring to nought.
1Co 1:20 Where is the wise? where is the scribe? where is the disputer of this world? hath not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:20 AM:
" http://youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o&feature=related
Yep, this is what I believe.
Can't go wrong with Carlin, he's a bit brash, but makes excellent points. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:16 AM:
" Religion in my opinion is nothing more than a business. Why else do they knock on my door way too often, same as vacuum salesmen or amway people?
Being a business, they should be taxed, but that will never happen because too many people think they'll go to hell for enacting such a rule.
I think religion was bigger around the world wars, when you could still take a belt to your kid if he didn't want to go to church. As well, sitting in a foxhole getting shelled probably helped people believe a bit, but, in that situation, you'd be trying everything and anything.... they probably rubbed a rabbits foot at the same time they were pleading to 'god'. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:11 AM:
" It's pretty entertaining to see the bantering here, mines better, no, mines better, I'm right, no, I'm right LOL
The terrorists are doing what they're doing for their god, and our marines are doing what they're doing for their god ... who's right?
Imagine how peaceful the world would be with no religion, living as one! Look at all the wars fought over religion, in the past and present. Sick, brainwashed people ... Hitler must have been jealous of all this and tried his own brainwashing tactics. Think for yourselves. "
HonestAbe wrote on Jun 19, 2008 7:02 AM:
" I can be a good person without donating to a church. Many that go to church do so just for the social status, why else do the entwine it into most conversations? As well, if they do wrong, they are forgiven, ha.
I'm agnostic, not atheist. Atheist is against, agnostic is 'to each his own'.
I went to church as a kid, but then got old enough to think for myself ... its amazing how many people still don't think for themselves, or now how to 'be good' on their own. "
Happycamper wrote on Jun 19, 2008 6:58 AM:
" No one is interested in ONE commenter monopolizing a forum with preaching. Maybe if you say it enough you'll believe it yourself. You might want to start each comment with "Once upon a time..." It would be quite fitting. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 19, 2008 6:12 AM:
" yellow media watch,
This is an open forumn on the faith page. If you don't want to read 'preaching' then go to another page. It would be like going to any church and complaining that all the preacher is doing is preaching from a meaningless book. Nobody is climbing onto your back except maybe your own conscience.
If you truely believed this was all nonsense, you would ignore it, just like I ignore all of your comic book blogs. The truth is that you have a soul that is searching for it's creator, and you know in your heart that the God of the Bible is He.
BTW, God is not a human race. He transends that human triviality. "
Yellow media watch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 10:50 PM:
" Like the backward descendants of backward nut case Middle-Eastern cave dwellers have anything I want.
Oh and your god is black...not white like you choose to believe...That region of the world is dark people! "
Yellow media watch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 10:47 PM:
" Can someone please put this guy back in his cave...this is annoying, and adds nothing of substance.
How bout I quote my comic books?...same difference.
You nuts are brainwashed into believing you need to save everyone from themselves...get off my back I don't need your preaching. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 2:57 PM:
" As for the interveneing question, I also was thinking, how do you know that God didn't intervene and save La Crosse from being flooded out by splitting up two huge systems.
The point is that we always complain when things don't go our way, but how often do we thank God for all of the unseen miracles? Personally, I try to thank God every night for all of my blessings. Even the simple ones like food, water, shelter, and health.
You also are trying to fit the Job story into every disaster situation. How many times did God open up a sea so that people could escape death? Job is a snapshot of one incident and it certainly isn't one of a cruel God, but of Satan's cruelty and man's misunderstanding. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 2:48 PM:
" Who says that God didn't intervene in Iowa or China? We don't know how many lives God may have saved by protecting people from the full onslaught of those situations.
As a Christian, I know that no matter what the current circumstance, whether good or horrible, God will be with me, and He can make the end result good. And yes, of course people's current sufferings pain God's heart, but God is more concerned about the soul. The sufferings of this present time can not be compared to the glory of God or the punishment that sin requires.
If a small swat on the butt on my kids gets them to look both ways, then the temporary discomfort is worth the gains. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 2:39 PM:
" It's not a foregone conclusion that the Great Flood had to happen. Theoretically, if the people in Noah's day turned back to God like the people of Ninevah, the Flood wouldn't have happened.
Yes, we do have to live with the fact that all of us are born with a sin stain on our soul and in our current physical world. Why do innocent suffer? Primarily because of being born into sin. There are no truely innocent people though in God's eyes. We all have sinned and fall short. God saw that though and has provided a way for us to live victoriously with Him forever. "
Phil OBates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 2:24 PM:
" Genesis 1:31 "And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, [it was] very good. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day."
Genesis 12:10 "And there was a famine in the land: and Abram went down into Egypt to sojourn there; for the famine [was] grievous in the land."
The first is the text which says that everything that God had made was VERY GOOD. Floods are not 'very good'. The second text shows that famine existed after Noah's flood.
Now these verses don't prove the theory that our chaotic natural world came about because of the World wide flood. It is a logical extrapolation of Scripture and our current worldly conditions. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 2:03 PM:
" And then you could also ask -- if God chooses NOT to intervene in a disaster such as the Chinese earthquake or the devastation of so many folks' homes and lives in the midwest floods, then WHY NOT? Wouldn't their suffering mean anything to Him -- especially if they were obviously not at fault? Job's question -- yes read it and then tell me, then, what God's answer to Job is eh?... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 1:58 PM:
" Read Job indeed -- so then, WHAT is the 'slant'? And okay the natural world of today was supposedly 'created' by Noah's flood but that was Adam's and Eve's fault and now we just have to live with it? And the warning is that 'It could always be worse' but then WHY? If 'God' can 'fix it' then WHY DO THE INNOCENT SUFFER? Or 'need' to suffer?... "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 1:48 PM:
" The people in Iowa and Wisconsin and anywhere are victims of the current natural world. Science can study the current natural world, but those current conditions were brought about by the Great Flood which was brought about by sin (not the individual sins of Iowegians or Cheeseheads).
On the book of Job, don't take Michael's slanted misinterpretation of it. Read it yourself.
Can God directly interact in our natural environment? Certainly. Does He? I believe He does at times. Is God ordering up tornados to punish people everytime we see tornados? NO! We don't know when God is interacting, but after most disasters, you hear people saying things like "Thank God, he was protecting us. Because it could have been much worse." "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 1:38 PM:
" 'PO'B': sure quote as many verses as you wish but you/they still don't answer the questions. The world only began flooding, quaking, vulcanizing AFTER Noah?! Where in Genesis does it SAY that?... "
Phil OBates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 1:34 PM:
" Oh my! Bible verses being quoted on the Faith page! Who ever heard of such nonsense?
Now, about weather, we don't know exactly what the world was like before the world-wide flood, but the Bible says that when God finished with creation that he saw that it was good. Therefore, floods, earthquakes, etc. are things that came after God created everything. The world-wide flood caused the continental splits, the massive mountain ranges, and the deep Oceans. The tornados and floods that show up now are climatic conditions we live with because of the results of the Great Flood of Noah. THAT flood came about because God ordained it to punish that generations sin. There is nothing in the Bible that says that God is 'willing' earthquakes and floods around the world to punish people. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 1:34 PM:
" I think it much more plausible to accept scientific explanations for climactic disasters than to propose that 'sin' causes everything we don't like and anything that harms us. The trouble is that, to some, if 'God' is divorced from nature then the deist idea seems more apt -- i. e. the 'laws' of nature are 'set' by God and He doesn't alter them -- but then the old Jobian difficulty arises: why do the innocent suffer? In Job's case it obviously is NOT human failing that causes his distress but God's will itself. That's what makes the book of Job one of the most compelling, profound and disturbing of the scriptures. ('PO'B' by the way sounds much like one of Job's uh 'comforters'...) "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 12:41 PM:
" The REAL question here is why is suffering so arbitrary -- it's precisely the query of Job, and in that scripture God's own reply doesn't mention 'sin' at all. He even allows that Job is 'innocent' of ANY wrongdoing. Essentially God asserts that He, God, can do whatever He likes for whatever reason He has and no one is 'big enough' to stop Him! He wins his bet with Satan (His own spy on earth, not His 'enemy') and then 'restores' Job to prosperity albeit the deaths of Job's children et. al. can't be retracted; indeed he has to be given 'new' children as replacements. So the message of the book of Job is 'Tough luck! No matter what you are or what you do, God can toy with you as He chooses'... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 18, 2008 12:24 PM:
" We know that 'PO'B's arguments are getting rather desperate when all he has left is to fling Bible verses -- and the old saying holds, that 'Satan' too can cite scripture for HIS purposes. So: ARE natural disasters NOT the result of climactic happenings and internal geographies but are solely 'God's will'? 'PO'B' indicates yes yet he accuses me of 'spinning' him when all he does is give me the 'spin.' Are the people of Iowa victims of God's wrath or the exogencies of the natural world? Is all this JUST BECAUSE of Adam and Eve? How did Noah's flood cause the upper Mississippi flooding of today? What's your reply? More Bible verses?????... "
Phil OBates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 8:55 AM:
" Yellow media watch,
God is with me through everything, good and bad.
Rom 8:28 "And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to [his] purpose."
Yes, I am brain washed and soul washed. It is great to have a clean brain and soul.
John 15:3 "Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you."
1John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
Rom 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what [is] that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God." "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 8:16 AM:
" Senior Advocate,
You have accepted your gospel, that Jesus was just a prophet and that the Bible was altered, on faith, not proof. God will judge you on your faith.
You are partially right about the Kingdom of God. Right now the Kingdom of God is where Jesus reigns. That would be in heaven and in the hearts of believers. At some point in the future, God will reign on Earth. The Holy Spirit will show you the way through the Bible. "
county resident wrote on Jun 18, 2008 7:19 AM:
" Pastor Sandness, you love people by telling them the Truth about the grace they need in order to be seen "good" before a Holy God. Grace is not something we can simple "love others" to earn, it must by definition be a gift. That is the message of the church and sadly the reason many are leaving it is becasue they don't hear it preach or see it lived out in authenticity. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 7:16 AM:
" Donatello,
Who says that if someone debates matters of faith, that it doesn't translate over to current events like politics?
It is true that politicians are working to 'screw us over' but when has it been any different? If a person uses the Bible as their moral compass then things like abortion, Israel, the environment, and Jesus being the only way to heaven, does impact on who they may choose to represent their views.
Besides, these are issues of the soul, which have an eternal consequence for individuals. Politicians and corruption in this World are temporary. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 6:57 AM:
" midwestatheist,
I understand more than just basic science. Science studies what it can observe and duplicate. A scientific fact is something that is observed or able to be repeated. Science can only make judgements on the natural world not the supernatural. When you close your mind to the supernatural you create your own bias.
I studied quite a bit of science, before I came to the conclusion that science does not have even difinitive answers for the natural world. The Bible, though, makes sense spiritually and physically.
There is nothing in science that has disproved the Bible. In fact, in all the years of trying, science has actually confirmed much of the Bible (archeology for one).
On matters of spiritual faith, when God says something like 'Jesus is the only way to Heaven', yes, I accept or believe it. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 6:44 AM:
" Michael,
Your desire to continue to spin what I wrote and what you know is in the Bible to fit your sinario, does not fool God.
Galations 6:7-8 'Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting."
Floods are not "God getting even." Death and destruction are the result of sin. God created the World in a form that was good not evil.
Rom 3:10 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:"
Rom 6:23 'For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 6:36 AM:
" Billorights,
God will abolish evil. He isn't impotent or powerless. Sin is the seed of evil, and sin must also be destroyed. The problem is, every human has sin that needs to be destroyed, attached to them. Jesus paid the penalty for sin, so as God he can forgive your sin so you wont be destroyed for your sin. God is waiting to "bring the whole sin show to completion" so that everyone will have an opportunity to accept forgiveness and live with God forever.
Your Greek philosopher was wanting the solution in his time frame. God is working on a much higher and perfect time frame. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 18, 2008 6:16 AM:
" To Chris King,
I hear you. The power of truth isn't our words but the Word of God. People have been given free will by God to choose Him or reject Him. Many here seem to reject God, but that can change in an instant. Our job as Christians is to present them with the truth of God's Word, so they have an opportunity to accept the truth.
Rom 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Rev 20:15 "And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire." "
billorights wrote on Jun 17, 2008 8:16 PM:
" MIchael W,
Your last message reminded of something that Phil O'B and Chris K. should be able to explain to all of us:
The Greek philosopher Epicurus, 300 BCE said:
Either God wants to abolish evil, and cannot,
Or he can, but does not want to,
If he wants to, but cannot, he Is impotent.
If he can, but does not want to, he is wicked.
If he neither can, nor wants to,
Then he Is both powerless and wicked. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 17, 2008 12:13 PM:
" Unfortunately below 'PO'B' states that '[s]in led to the flood [Noah's] and the flood changed the world's [sic -- he means 'world' I presume] forever.... That change has brought us earthquakes, tornados, etc.' Et cetera -- I presume that includes floods. So what 'sin'? Is God STILL getting even re: Adam and Eve? Talk about not being able to let something go -- are the folks in Iowa suffering today because Eve and Adam ate the apple? ALL of them 'PO'B' indicates are NOT 'guilty' but apparently ALL must suffer -- why? God is either ominiscient and omnipotent or not -- meaning HE has some 'choice' in the matter eh? (Or why pray at all?) God seems inordinately cruel and unreasonable if He can't even 'target' the proper sinners but MUST use this scatter gun approach?... "
buckets wrote on Jun 17, 2008 11:24 AM:
" Mr King: YOU are the one "wrapped up in YOURSELF". I LOVE the bumper sticker quoted in an earlier article...."Militant agnostic: I don't know and you don't know either". It's all about control and being right...you don't have a clue anymore than the rest of us do. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 17, 2008 10:49 AM:
" Phil, it is extremely difficult to stand in the world, preaching the Word of God, and expect those that simply cannot see the truth to understand what we are trying to tell them. All we can do is our righteous duty to tell others the Gospel. The rest, whether they believe, is up to God! We sow seeds, and God decides where those seeds will grow and bear fruit. "
Chris King wrote on Jun 17, 2008 10:48 AM:
" What Mr. O'Bates knows and others must realize is that those in this world are blinded to the works of God. They are so wrapped up in themselves and the deceitfulness of their "wisdom" that they are unable to see THE TRUTH.
The fact is that I am guilty of having anger towards the individuals of this world that refuse to see God and obey his will as He tells us in His word. In reality, my anger is sinful and should be replaced with an attitude of pity and unending prayer that their eyes be opened and they repent and believe in Jesus Christ. "
Happycamper wrote on Jun 17, 2008 12:16 AM:
" The flooding/weather is just nature at work. It's both amazing and incredibly destructive. There's nothing supernatural about it. A sin leading to a world-wide flood? Ridiculous... "
midwestatheist wrote on Jun 16, 2008 10:54 PM:
" Continuing to have a debate with someone like Phil- who believes in Adam and Eve, Noah's flood, and probably that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old- is completely pointless. He has so completely divorced himself from reality and from the understanding of even basic science, that no argument based in logic will have any effect. His criteria for belief is, "God said it, I believe it, and that's it" "
Yellow media watch wrote on Jun 16, 2008 10:47 PM:
" Sounds like a stupid excuse for bad things happening while your God does nothing...you are brainwashed.
Hey I have a bridge for sale...bring your checkbook over Mr Ned Flanders! "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 16, 2008 9:50 PM:
" I don't have much time to post today, but I had to address Michael's last erroneous conclusion. I never said that people's sin's today bring about tornados or flooding. Because of Adam's sin all of mankind is now born into sin. That sin led to the great world-wide flood of Noah which forever altered the Earth's climate. It floods on the righteous and the unrighteous alike. God can and does provide protection against natural distasters. What I do believe is that if America continues down the road of rejecting Jesus, the His protective hand will be lifted and we will feel the full brunt of Earthly disasters. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 16, 2008 12:27 PM:
" If 'sin' causes earthquakes, volcanos, floods etc., then the people of Iowa must be the most 'sinful' -- at the moment at least. Moreover the earth's moving tectonic plates, molten interior, winds and currents et. al., must have 'nothing' to do with climate and weather?! Global warming may indeed be a product of the sin of greed but the Cedar river 'drowning' practically all of Cedar Rapids? Again I caution people about LITERAL interpretations of scripture and their implications. Literalism inspires MORE, not less, religious doubt than does skepticism; I'd say it's even the source of the latter... "
Donatello wrote on Jun 16, 2008 11:45 AM:
" Keep yourselves occupied with this time consuming useless banter.
While the world crumbles due to Politicians hell bent on greed and destruction and favoritism for the rich and powerful.
Religion is a tool for keeping people under control and occupy their time and actions. "
Senior Advocate wrote on Jun 16, 2008 8:59 AM:
" The true message of the prophet Jesus was de-railed after his death. The main instigator was Paul who never knew Jesus nor was privy, first hand to his teachings. Who knows how changed the actual teachings are, in light of the messages the church wanted to preach. The Kindond of God is withing each of us, not up their, not down here, not in the churches etc.. Sandness statement that "the church needs you if IT'S ever to be the Kingdome of God", well I have news for you pastor, the church is not the kingdom nor will it show you the way, because it is steeped in hierarchy, rituals, building, stautes, and prophets teaching a method that leads people away from finding the kingdom insinde to searching for it through man made agenda, wrong agenda driven organizations. "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 15, 2008 11:26 PM:
" Billorights,
Romans 5:12 "Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"
Sin lead to the flood and the flood changed the world's forever.(Gen 6:11-13) That change has brought us earthquakes, tornados, etc.
The example of the 40 year old choosing to reject Jesus as God will condemn him. (John 3:18)
Your twisting of my statement about not being concerned about a hypothetical person, indicates that you just wish to argue. Of course people should be concerned about real people and help them when they can. My point was deal with the only soul you have a say over...your own. "
billorights wrote on Jun 15, 2008 10:14 PM:
" to Phil O'Bates,
It has been a while since I read the Bible but I don't recall any verses that clearly state or even imply what you claim in your first paragraph. What is your source? Did God tell you directly?
What if the person killed was a 40 year old philosophy professor in Saudi Arabia who sincerely believed that while Jesus was a prophet, he was not the Son of God, etc. Do his sincere beliefs condemn him to the eternal agonies of Hell?
Why wouldn't I worry and be concerned about other people? Isn't that one of the most basic of the teachings of Jesus and every other significant religious leader? "
billorights wrote on Jun 15, 2008 10:12 PM:
" to Phil O'Bates,
It has been a while since I read the Bible but I don't recall any verses that clearly state or even imply what you claim in your first paragraph. What is your source? Did God tell you directly?
What if the person killed was a 40 year old philosopy professor in Saudi Arabia who sincerely beleived that while Jesus was a profet, he was not the Son of God, etc. Do his sincere beliefs condemn him to the eternal agaonies of Hell?
Why wouldn't I worry and be concerned about other people? Isn't that one of the most basic of the teachings of Jesus and every other significant religious leader? "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 15, 2008 6:24 PM:
" To Billorights,
No.
First, an earthquake is the result of sin which is the result of Adam and Eve's choice. God isn't ordering up earthquakes, tornado's, etc. Their origins were set into motion long ago through the choice of man.
Second, a person needs to understand their fallen or sinful state to be able to "call upon the Lord". That age varies depending on mental capacity and knowledge of Jesus. Some people (like downs syndrome people) never reach an age of "accountability."
In the end, Jesus is the fairest judge, and will make the final decision, but Jesus's command to all is accept him and tell others so they too can be saved. Don't worry about the hypathetical child in China, worry about your own soul. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 4:01 PM:
" The trouble for everyone else in the world is that therefore ALL other religions are 'false' and their believers are condemned -- in some way or another. Paul, apparently a Jewish Greek, insists that God still regards His 'covenant' or promise to the Jews as in effect, but that most Jews have retained their religion and refused conversion to Christianity has often irritated and maddened Christians so that Jews have been periodically slaughtered as 'Christ killers' etc., and indeed the passion account in the gospel of Matthew has Jews saying '[Jesus'] blood be upon us and our children!' Christianity in practice has NOT been a 'peaceful' religion; it has many avenues for 'righteous,' God-approved violence... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 3:54 PM:
" Christians 'solved' Jesus' death by making it the -- one might say -- Abrahamic sacrifice, i. e. while God prevents Abraham from sacrificing Isaac, God REQUIRES then the death of His own son in order to atone for the sins of Adam and Eve which are passed on as the sins of all humanity. And Jesus then is 'the savior of the world,' not only of the Jews, and so EVERYONE MUST 'believe' in him or be condemned to an eternal (sort of) perdition. Actions do NOT it seems 'speak louder than words' or thoughts -- BELIEVING alone is not only enough but actions ('deeds') become suspect because they imply individuals can choose 'goodness' and salvation without Jesus' intervention and mediation... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 3:46 PM:
" In Christianity everything is focused on Jesus and the interpretations of his will, which re: below are confusing except in one aspect -- one is to 'believe in Jesus' as not only the ultimate representative of 'God' but as 'God Himself.' The doctrine that the Hebrew God ('The Lord Thy God, The Lord is One!') has suddenly become a 'trinity' that includes Jesus seems really a bit bizarre, but then Jesus is also to be the Jewish messiah who is not supposed to be divine himself but well, the implications get rather balled up. Jesus does NOT however restore 'Israel'; he gets crucified instead and so can't be the messiah, in Jewish terms... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 3:38 PM:
" Jesus in the gospels is USUALLY pacifistic; he even commands his disciples NOT to 'resist evil' but to 'pray for them that persecute you,' 'turn the other cheek' when physically struck and EVEN 'love your enemies.' Needless to say THESE admonitions are almost always ignored or rationalized away. Paul's letter to the Romans somehow 'overrides' Jesus as Paul exalts the state as an instrument of God against disorder and of course that state must be able to enforce ITS will with violence. Jesus too condemns at times those who don't accept his primacy and projects an extremely violent and cruel apocalyptic end -- better to never have been born or never to have born a child etc.... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 3:29 PM:
" The difficulty in the monotheisms (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) is indeed the presumption that 'God' controls everything and that nothing happens against His will THAT HE DOES NOT 'PERMIT,' meaning that the slaughter of innocents etc., is not NECESSARILY His will (though it can be -- see the Bible for many examples) but He allows humans the 'free will' to choose to be cruel, violent and so on. Of course in the scriptures God often COMMANDS cruelty and violence and punishes (see Saul) when His orders aren't carried out to the letter... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 15, 2008 3:05 PM:
" Sometimes God is 'asleep' or 'on vacation' -- ask the Jews... "
billorights wrote on Jun 15, 2008 10:44 AM:
" To Phil O' Bates
So...let's get this right. When a 6 year old girl is killed in an earthquake in China(obviously done by the will of Jesus/God) and she had not accepted Jesus as her saviour...she will spend all of eternity suffering the unimaginable agony of Hell.
That is a direct implication of what you believe, isn't it? "
Phil O'Bates wrote on Jun 14, 2008 6:23 PM:
" Jesse has some correct ideas, but he misses some big points. Religions are man run organizations which try to reach God through works. Nothing run by sinful man can know everything or reach God through works. However, sinful man can have communion with Jesus who does know everything. This is accomplished by accepting the work that Jesus accomplised by faith. We learn of Jesus through the Bible and through the Holy Spirit which is given to those who believe on Jesus. Jesus says the ONLY he is the way to heaven, so if you believe in Jesus you accept and know that to be true. Jesse thinks things like this only brings problems. He misses the fact that Jesus warns that the problems without Jesus are much, much worse. "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 14, 2008 12:40 PM:
" One joke among Jews about Jews by the way is: 'Two Jews, three opinions,' which doesn't mean that there are no literalists in Judaism -- try driving your car through some hasidic neighborhoods in Jerusalem on the sabbath; you'll find that rocking your car is evidently NOT 'sacriligious'! But the traditional Talmudic idea that the scriptures MUST be examined minutely and interpreted for real life and 'modernity' is a good precept I'd say. You can in Judaism not only argue ABOUT God but argue WITH God -- see Abraham re: the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah or Job re: his UNJUST plight. That argumentation is a healthy RELIGIOUS attitude... "
Michael Welch wrote on Jun 14, 2008 12:31 PM:
" I came to believe that religions are successful because one can usually 'read' whatever one wants into it. Alternately one may, if a Christian say, simply 'follow the rules' as put down by the magisterium and priests (if Catholic) or by the literalist evangelical pastor of your choice. But while I believe Herr Professor Freud is essentially correct -- 'God' is the ultimate parental superego for those who MUST find the Perfect Parent -- I dislike 'militant' atheism because religions obviously have very profound aspects, 'good' and 'bad,' which are quite sophisticated IF one is able to go beyond that simplistic 'literalism'... "
Mack wrote on Jun 14, 2008 9:12 AM:
" The way Evangelicals embraced the unjust Iraq war drove a lot of people away. This may be one of the grossest and widespread abuses of religion we have ever seen. "
Sphinctuss wrote on Jun 14, 2008 2:51 AM:
" What pushes people away from religion? Perhaps that isn't the correct question to ask. Perhaps they see the real light and come to the realization that religion is not the answer. "
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